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Miller's Court after Kelly...........

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  • #16
    Interesting article. Thanks for posting it. Interesting too that Inspector Moore hypothesised that Jack escaped from the room in Miller's Court via the window, due to a 'jammed' door. Also that he went on to kill five times more!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by tnb View Post
      It may well be Debs, as I said I've never really managed to get my head around the issue. But I'd believe Mark if he said pretty much anything so if so then that's good enough for me.
      Hi Trevor- I checked this morning and it was mentioned in Mark's book 'Whitechapel and District' ( M.W. Oldridge)-he found a map of #12. There's some discussion on this thread for anyone interested:

      http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5497
      ,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸, Debs ,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,

      I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

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      • #18
        Good old Mark. I'll have to buy him a pint on Saturday to make up for forgetting that!

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        • #19
          Hi Trevor and Debs,

          You flatter me. Saying that I 'found' the map implies a more substantial level of perseverance and fortitude than was actually necessary: I looked at the National Archives' catalogue on the internet, went there on the tube, and had an excuse to ask for the file to be brought up from the basement. Anyone else could have done it - and several people very probably did - before I did it. Still, I'll take the pint, if there's one going.

          If memory serves, then Kitty Roman's murder occurred in the first floor room in the building opposite the north-facing window of Mary Jane Kelly's room, and Eliza Roberts's murder (by Kate Marshall) occurred in the room directly above Mary Jane Kelly's room. The confusion arises because, by 1898, the room directly above Mary Jane Kelly's room was number 19 ... but Elizabeth Prater had said that she lived in room number 20 (by 1898, room number 20 was the first floor room of 26 Dorset Street, overlooking the street and with a view of the buildings on the south side). Some people - including Gareth Williams and Steve Thomas, both of whom know their stuff - believe (or at least did when the battle raged) that Elizabeth Prater lived in the room overlooking Dorset Street, rather than the room above Mary Jane Kelly's room, and the numbering system would seem to substantiate their view, supposing that it had not changed between 1888 and 1898. None of the other rooms in the court or in 26 Dorset Street seem to have changed their numbering over the same period.

          My view is that Elizabeth Prater lived directly above Mary Jane Kelly, and that, at some point between 1888 and 1898, room 19 became room 20 and room 20 became room 19. That doesn't sound like a very neat solution, but I find it hard to understand the significance of Elizabeth Prater's evidence in the Mary Jane Kelly case unless she were living very close to room 13. Overhead makes perfect sense - she's an ear-witness, and I think the value of her evidence diminishes rapidly if you suppose that she was living on the other side of the building. I think we know of her specifically because, well, she said that she had heard something, which made her a possible witness to something, and also because she was in such close proximity to the room in which the murder undoubtedly took place as to make her evidence of special importance. There are other factors - I think I remember her saying that she heard noises from the court, which I suspect would have been a more difficult judgement to make from the position of the front of the house - and Stewart Evans laid these out quite clearly in an interesting thread which still exists somewhere on these boards.

          That's my take on it. I doubt we will be able to find any more evidence to clarify the situation, let alone anything to explain why, if I'm right, the rooms swapped numbers, but, for me, the balance of probabilities leads me to the conclusion that they did, and that Elizabeth Prater lived directly above Mary Jane Kelly in November 1888.

          Regards,

          Mark

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          • #20
            THE MURDER OF POOR KITTY:
            https://www.babiafi.co.uk/2015/09/mi...oor-kitty.html

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            • #21
              Millers court was slapped with condemned notice in 1914 by the lcc but due to the Great War as with many demolitions was halted!In 1892 a Canadian journalist named Kit Watkins visited 13 millers court for a feature on the Whitechapel murders she met the currrent occupant of 13 Lottie Owen and was shown the room with bloodstains still on the walls !! Still unpainted!! So yes room was re-let after Nov 1888

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              • #22
                Originally posted by m_w_r View Post

                My view is that Elizabeth Prater lived directly above Mary Jane Kelly, and that, at some point between 1888 and 1898, room 19 became room 20 and room 20 became room 19.
                I understand Mark is no longer posting on these boards, but anyone interested in Praters room might appreciate this press cutting.

                Mark is wrong on two points.
                1 - Prater lived in the front room facing Dorset street, over the 'shed'.
                2 - An unnamed couple occupied the room directly above Mary Kelly.

                Regards, Jon S.

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                • #23
                  Indeed, Elizabeth Prater is herself specifically quoted as saying that she lived "at 20 room in Miller's Court, above the shed" (Daily Telegraph, 13th November 1888). The snippet posted by Wickerman above is an earlier report (10th Nov) in the same paper, I think.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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                  • #24
                    Have a look through Larry Proctor's old photos of London's East End:
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaRnA2RemJk

                    He has heaps "East End Photos 1", East End Photos 2'......'East End Photos 10'.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Rosella View Post
                      Interesting article. Thanks for posting it. Interesting too that Inspector Moore hypothesised that Jack escaped from the room in Miller's Court via the window, due to a 'jammed' door. Also that he went on to kill five times more!
                      Joseph Barnett said that Mary would reach through the broken window to unlock the door, since it was broken shortly before the murder. If the door was locked again by simply using a catch, the murderer didn't have to risk cutting himself or being seen climbing out through the window.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Robert View Post
                        Interest in the crimes definitely waned after the initial few years of excitement, not really recovering until, I suppose, the late 50s/60s. It's a real tragedy that so much has been lost, but I guess you can't blame former generations for not realising that they could preserve something that future generations would give their eye teeth for.

                        We do have one photo of the interior of Dutfield's Yard, thanks to Philip Hutchinson.

                        We have one photo of the passageway at Hanbury St.

                        I don't think we have any of Tabram's landing.

                        And of course no photo of the interior of 13 Room (apart from the body pics).
                        Isn’t there a photo in The East End Then And Now edited by Winston Ramsay?

                        If anyone hasn’t got this book of East End photographs I couldn’t recommend a book more highly. It’s a large thick hard back full of wonderful photos, information and reminiscences. I payed around £40 for mine when it came out and didn’t regret a penny of it. I’m amazed to find that Amazon used have a copy for £2.81!! Three other sellers have copies for less than £10.

                        Trust Herlock on this one guys.
                        Regards

                        Herlock






                        "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Leanne View Post
                          Have a look through Larry Proctor's old photos of London's East End:
                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaRnA2RemJk

                          He has heaps "East End Photos 1", East End Photos 2'......'East End Photos 10'.
                          These are great Leanne. I saw them a couple of days ago. I think they were linked on the JTRForum?
                          Regards

                          Herlock






                          "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I was just looking at the 2009 posts to this site and they were discussing the closure of the alley that was once Dorset Street to the public and read somewhere that certain licenced tour guides were allowed.


                            What are the chances that this video have been shot on someone's phone when accessing the real remains of the Miller's court?
                            https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...5&&FORM=VRDGAR

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                            • #29
                              The date that appears underneath says 2011, but that was the date it was posted. If you click on 'View the Page' and scroll down a bit you see that the Ripper walk was done in December 2010, plus it says that the group was standing meters away from where the body was found.

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                              • #30
                                The council said that it was the fear of attracting prostitutes to the area that caused them to block access to the site and have it gated up with guards, but I reckon it was more fear that they would be prevented from building the carpark.

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