Did Mary know her killer?

[Wickerman]

......she was scared of the murders so why the hightened risk taking for a few pennies more?

Because the authorities had begun to relax, nothing had happened for 6 weeks.
It was a false calm...

[Bridewell]

and there is no evidence anywhere that shows us Mary started bringing clients into a room leased under her name after Barnett left.

There is evidence that, on the night of her death, she took a blotchy-faced man back to her room and there is evidence that she did the same with a prosperous-looking man in an astrakhan coat, both late at night and both on the same evening. There is no proof that these encounters were between a prostitute and her client and there is no obligation to take the testimony of the witnesses concerned at face value. There is, however, evidence that Kelly took men back to her room on the night of her death and, whilst there is no proof that these were for the purposes of prostitution, that is a not unreasonable interpretation. It's one thing to disbelieve the evidence of the witnesses making these claims, but another thing entirely to pretend that such evidence does not exist.

[GUT]

The Canonicals were not a group of prostitutes, although its probable Mary Kelly did little else to make money for herself. Hence the certificate. All the others can be fairly called Unfortunates, which was a term used to describe single women without work or support that resorted to prostitution when funds were needed for food and a place to sleep. Or booze. That describes Pollys situation the night she is killed, and Annies, but its not in the evidence that the 3 Canonicals that followed were in the same straights on the respective nights they died.

In fact in Marys case, we have evidence that although she is behind in her rent she still has a room to sleep in. And she ate her last evening.

There was no reason at all for Mary to go out again after arriving home at 11:45pm. She was drunk when she got home, she had eaten, and she accomplished that without selling herself that we know of. She probably could have just hung off some guys arm on Mayors day and had another free ride.

Cheers

And people always act reasonably don't they, especially when they're drunk and mid 20 years in age are nothing but rational at any time even when drunk.

[Rosella]

Yes, I think Mary did totter out again that night in search of any extra sixpence. She may very well have realised that the overdue rent scenario wasn't going to last forever, whatever the arrangement was with McCarthy and if she could offer a shilling off the back rent instead of sixpence or fourpence or whatever she had in 'savings', that just might placate things for the time being.

[GUT]

Yes, I think Mary did totter out again that night in search of any extra sixpence. She may very well have realised that the overdue rent scenario wasn't going to last forever, whatever the arrangement was with McCarthy and if she could offer a shilling off the back rent instead of sixpence or fourpence or whatever she had in 'savings', that just might placate things for the time being.

Or she was so warn out after her sing dancing and whatever else with Blotchy she wandered out for some fush and chups.

[Rosella]

We don't have any Kiwis here, do we? Aussie in-joke!

[GUT]

We don't have any Kiwis here, do we? Aussie in-joke!

And the "U" key is next to the "I" key ... but still fitting for our K1W1 friends

[Wickerman]

There is evidence that, on the night of her death, she took a blotchy-faced man back to her room and there is evidence that she did the same with a prosperous-looking man in an astrakhan coat, both late at night and both on the same evening. There is no proof that these encounters were between a prostitute and her client and there is no obligation to take the testimony of the witnesses concerned at face value. There is, however, evidence that Kelly took men back to her room on the night of her death and, whilst there is no proof that these were for the purposes of prostitution, that is a not unreasonable interpretation. It's one thing to disbelieve the evidence of the witnesses making these claims, but another thing entirely to pretend that such evidence does not exist.

The fact Kelly was not fully dressed when found in bed, as was the norm according to her neighbours, is a good indication she was entertaining someone. And that particular 'someone' was her killer.

[DRoy]

Ok, so perhaps the client was not unknown? We have no indication either way. She may have known both Blotchy and Astrachan.
However, surely most of her clients were 'random', I don't think we should entertain the idea they made appointments.

Jon,

As we don't know how often she solicited or how often she actually went with a client, it would be speculation to assume most clients were 'random'.

No reason to take him home?
It was raining that night, why would she choose to perform in the rain when she has a room available?
Who bought her the food, Blotchy, Astrachan, or someone else?

No reason to take a 'random' customer home. Surely there were spots other than her room that would shelter her and a 'random' customer if he existed. Maybe she bought her food? Maybe it was "Danny" or "Julia"?

Good enough reason's to take them home, afterall, the Ripper never struck indoors.

They are reasons to take 'randoms' home sure, I just don't think they were good enough reasons for her to actually do it that night.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Because the authorities had begun to relax, nothing had happened for 6 weeks.
It was a false calm...

Jon,

The authorities did relax, but do you really think the women did? He was still getting daily press, Mary was already scared of him, and had been without her protector Barnett for a bit over a week. I doubt she was very relaxed.

Cheers
DRoy

[GUT]

And 20 somethings never engage in risky behaviour do they?

[DRoy]

And 20 somethings never engage in risky behaviour do they?

GUT,

Of course some do, but what do you have to support she was engaging in risky behaviour? Just because she was apparently young in age (late 20's), doesn't mean she acted her age. Do witnesses paint her as acting that way? Does her life story make her sound that way? Not to me.

I've at least presented my argument why I believe she knew her killer, is your argument she didn't know her killer just because young people sometimes do risky things?

Cheers
DRoy

[GUT]

GUT,

Of course some do, but what do you have to support she was engaging in risky behaviour? Just because she was apparently young in age (late 20's), doesn't mean she acted her age. Do witnesses paint her as acting that way? Does her life story make her sound that way? Not to me.

She was a prostitute, that by definition must rate as risky behaviour.

I've at least presented my argument why I believe she knew her killer, is your argument she didn't know her killer just because young people sometimes do risky things?

Cheers
DRoy

No I'm on the fence about her knowing her killer, but your argument that she wouldn't take someone home because she was frightened of the "Ripper" just doesn't do it, do you think any of the victims after No. 1 [whoever that was] wasn't worried, but necessity took them into risk.

[c.d.]

"She was a prostitute, that by definition must rate as risky behaviour."

An excellent point, GUT.

As far as a reluctance to take a client home, she certainly would have been aware that soliciting on the street was no guarantee of safety as evidenced by the previous murders.

I would also have to assume that taking a client home would cost the client more money and I would have to think that could have or would have factored into the decision to do so.

My opinion is that Mary knew her killer but only casually and let him in herself. I have to imagine that soliciting on the street especially when it was cold or rainy could not have been particularly pleasant. Having a client come to you whether expected or unexpected is having some of the work done for you. If she was in need of money, rent/food/drink, would she really want to pass up that opportunity?

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Jon,

The authorities did relax, but do you really think the women did?

Absolutely, there is even a comment in the press within a day or two of Kelly's murder that Dorset St. has returned to normal. That you wouldn't think such a murder had taken place by the activities going on here, back to normal.

People have short memories.