Did Mary know her killer?

[Paddy Goose]

Again it comes down to what we mean by "know." That definition could include someone she just met that day so no soap opera type drama need be involved.

Hi c. d.

No, the definition of know is "have developed a relationship with (someone) through meeting and spending time with them; be familiar or friendly with"

someone she just met that day

In your example, the poll question would be: Was Mary Kelly murdered by someone she just met that day? Not by someone she knew. So yes, the soap opera light is on for those who fancy it The poll is not neutered by your suggestion.

[c.d.]

Hello Paddy,

I think the knowing part has two aspects to it. The first would be was the killing personal? I don't see anything personal in it. The second would involve Mary letting someone in to her room which is what I think she did. In that instance, I think just met would suffice.

c.d.

[Damaso Marte]

If we believe Cadosch, Jack was able to at least chat to his potential victims. He could have been in a good mood, Lord Mayor' Show, a day off and so on, and just went up to Mary and made some weak Victorian joke about her being open for business, or something. There's nothing to say that Jack wouldn't have been reasonably pleasant when he approached these women.

The whereabouts of Nichols and Chapman (and Tabram) in the hours prior to their deaths is unknown. We don't know how much time they spent with their killer before he murdered them - it could potentially have been hours. Elizabeth Stride was near her murder scene for quite a bit of time before she was found dead - apparently chatting with men. Again, we have the possibility that the man who killed her spent some time with her.

Eddowes is the exception. We know she had a pretty compressed timeline between being released from prison and being found dead in Mitre Square. The killer's timeline is also compressed if you believe he killed Stride as well. But still, she could have spent a solid half hour or so with her killer. And Kelly, as we all know, could have been with her killer for hours.

So yes, there is nothing saying that the ripper (or rippers if you are lynn or michael) could not have chatted up their victims, perhaps even at length, before striking. There's obviously no proof of this, but it's not inconsistent with the evidence for the killer to have been a chatty fellow who got to know his victims first.

[GUT]

The whereabouts of Nichols and Chapman (and Tabram) in the hours prior to their deaths is unknown. We don't know how much time they spent with their killer before he murdered them - it could potentially have been hours. Elizabeth Stride was near her murder scene for quite a bit of time before she was found dead - apparently chatting with men. Again, we have the possibility that the man who killed her spent some time with her.

Eddowes is the exception. We know she had a pretty compressed timeline between being released from prison and being found dead in Mitre Square. The killer's timeline is also compressed if you believe he killed Stride as well. But still, she could have spent a solid half hour or so with her killer. And Kelly, as we all know, could have been with her killer for hours.

So yes, there is nothing saying that the ripper (or rippers if you are lynn or michael) could not have chatted up their victims, perhaps even at length, before striking. There's obviously no proof of this, but it's not inconsistent with the evidence for the killer to have been a chatty fellow who got to know his victims first.

There is nothing to rule the possibility of him spending time with one or more victim, unfortunately at the opposite end of the scale there is nothing to rule out a blitz attack either.

[Michael W Richards]

It's too bizarre and otherworldly, the manner of her death. No, Mary Kelly did not know her murderer.

Not a soap opera

I just addressed the flaws with that very assumption on another thread...from the Stout JTR Thread......"One very important thing must be factored when people try to provide a timeline for Marys murder....the call at 3:45 was almost surely from Mary, no-one from the courtyard claimed to have made the call and no-one else came forward to say it was them calling out "oh-murder", and the only person unable to claim that voice is the dead person. There was no sound coming from Marys room after that call. And we have 2 witnesses awake listening for follow up cries, one witness heard the call "as if from the court", and one heard it "as if at the front door". Since the second witness was actually in the courtyard at the time, and the first in the house at 26 above Mary....there is every reason to suspect the call was Mary's, likely from her open door, based on the volumes the statements contain. Which means....the attack did not start with "oh-murder", Mary was alive at that time, and she answered her door when she made the exclamation...the knock was what woke diddles as well.

So the prelude to the murder indicates...known man to Mary, murder after 3:45 when people fell asleep again, and Mary in bed on her right side, facing the wall, when attacked. Anyone who doesn't see a personal relationship between killer and victim should look again".

People often illogically base their opinions on some matters using their "gut"...I suggest the brain is a much better tool and well suited for the task.

Cheers

[Paddy Goose]

she answered her door when she made the exclamation

So one of the soap opera cast knocks on Mary's door, she opens it and screams Oh Murder. And that's how we know she knew her killer? No I don't understand that.

But let me ask you this Michael - When somebody you know knocks on your door do you open it and scream Oh Murder? Often, or just sometimes

[GUT]

So one of the soap opera cast knocks on Mary's door, she opens it and screams Oh Murder. And that's how we know she knew her killer? No I don't understand that.

But let me ask you this Michael - When somebody you know knocks on your door do you open it and scream Oh Murder? Often, or just sometimes

And then go and lay on the bed waiting quietly to be ripped?

[RockySullivan]

And then go and lay on the bed waiting quietly to be ripped?

Could the Ripper have attacked straight away from the doorway? It doesnt necessarily follow that he knows Kelly if she opens the door and he's brandishing a knife, she screams and he attacks, forcing her onto the bed.

[GUT]

Could the Ripper have attacked straight away from the doorway? It doesnt necessarily follow that he knows Kelly if she opens the door and he's brandishing a knife, she screams and he attacks, forcing her onto the bed.

And Mrs Prater {now wide awake} hears nothing?

[elleryqueen74]

So the prelude to the murder indicates...known man to Mary, murder after 3:45 when people fell asleep again, and Mary in bed on her right side, facing the wall, when attacked. Anyone who doesn't see a personal relationship between killer and victim should look again[/I]".

People often illogically base their opinions on some matters using their "gut"...I suggest the brain is a much better tool and well suited for the task.

Cheers

Saying because she answered the door to someone and they didn't force their way in proves she knew her killer is a as ridiculous as saying that because a man taps a woman on the shoulder and says something to her and they both laugh that that somehow proves they know each other.

Sorry but really I can't see how someone unknown to her couldn't have knocked on her door.

[RockySullivan]

And Mrs Prater {now wide awake} hears nothing?

She did hear it! She heard screams of murder murder murder what more do you expect?

[GUT]

She did hear it! She heard screams of murder murder murder what more do you expect?

Of course, except there were no "screams of murder murder murder" rather there was a cry of oh murder, such cries being heard frequently. But lets not let mere facts get in the way of a good theory.

[Batman]

Mary didn't have to open anything. Anyone can open that door by watching her window trick.

[RockySullivan]

Of course, except there were no "screams of murder murder murder" rather there was a cry of oh murder, such cries being heard frequently. But lets not let mere facts get in the way of a good theory.

I'm curious about the different between oh murder & screaming murder two or three times. If you scream murder more than once your in likely danger unless your crying wolf, don't you agree? The fact that she says two or three times rules out the possibility that she's describing a friendly "oh murder". However let's say for instance the screams came from outside and not from
Kelly. Why would someone be outside screaming "murder murder!" Twice possibly 3 times at 4 am? If maxwell's sighting was legit, than who knows maybe some cook was outside screaming murder murder for fun and it just so happened to be right outside from where a murder takes place. Seems like a stretch to me. If Kelly wasn't killed until the late morning, which I think is possible, who was the man maxwell saw her with? A market porter...possibly a spitalfields market porter?
"
eBetween 3.30 and 4.00am, she was awoken by her kitten 'Diddles' walking across her neck and at that moment heard screams of murder, about two or three times, in a female voice. She did not take much notice as such cries were frequent."


On returning, Maxwell saw Kelly again at about 8.45-9.00am outside the Britannia talking to a man. He was about 30 years of age, stout of build, about 5ft 5ins tall and dressed like a market porter. As she was quite a distance away, she did not believe she would recognise him again. Kelly was wearing a dark dress, velvet body and a maroon shawl.[1]

[Robert]

Mary didn't have to open anything. Anyone can open that door by watching her window trick.

You don't even need a window trick. Just push :

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/6293.html