Murder, what murder?

[Cogidubnus]

I've always understood that "our" McCarthy was the one born in France...could his dad have been one of Brassey's navvies?

All the best

Dave

[packers stem]

Never noticed the McCarthy link to Dieppe before or if i had,i'd forgotten.
Never ceases to amaze me the coincidences in this case,Dieppe-Sickerts second home.Could he have possibly have known McCarthy,could this explain his fascination with the case and the postcard sent to Mrs McCarthy.
I'm sure some of the coincidences in JTR would astonish statisticians.
Eddowes using the name Mary Kelly,next death Mary Kelly.Lottery winning odds on that one.
And Natasha if i were looking for the real Mary Kelly to reappear somewhere else after Millers Court....Dieppe would be a starting point.
Didn't Sickert have a redhead housekeeper in Dieppe,a Mrs.Barrett ?
All the best

[GUT]

I believe this connection to France occurred when Kelly was in the West-End, possibly living with the Morganstern's in Fulham, sometime between 1884-86?

Yes Jon that's as I understand it but where were the two Johns at that time.

[Wickerman]

Yes I left Daniel out he, as I understand it was the landlords son.

I thought more likely cousins than brothers.

My main thought was that if Marie Jeanette had been to France with the one who was born in France and he was the cousin of the landlord it makes the arrears more explicable.

I believe this connection to France occurred when Kelly was in the West-End, possibly living with the Morganstern's in Fulham, sometime between 1884-86?

[GUT]

G'day Jon

Hi Gut.
There were three McCarthy's living at No. 27, but to keep things simple, the third one was named Daniel.


There wasn't a lot between their ages, brothers perhaps?

Yes I left Daniel out he, as I understand it was the landlords son.

I thought more likely cousins than brothers.

My main thought was that if Marie Jeanette had been to France with the one who was born in France and he was the cousin of the landlord it makes the arrears more explicable.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman

I was just going on what I read on the witness page under John McCarthy

You're right this case is a difficult one

The witness, John McCarthy, did give his occupation as Grocer, but whether this was generic or specific, who can tell.
John'ny 'Dieppe' ? - possibly.

[Wickerman]

Hi Gut.
There were three McCarthy's living at No. 27, but to keep things simple, the third one was named Daniel.


There wasn't a lot between their ages, brothers perhaps?

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha.
Are you sure you have the right McCarthy?

The census for 1891 shows two John McCarthy's living at No. 27.

John McCarthy, Born Spitalfields, General Shop Keeper, and wife Mary.
And..
John McCarthy, Born Dieppe, France, Grocer, and wife Elizabeth.

Who said this case was simple

Hi Wickerman

I was just going on what I read on the witness page under John McCarthy

You're right this case is a difficult one

[GUT]

Hi Natasha.
Are you sure you have the right McCarthy?

The census for 1891 shows two John McCarthy's living at No. 27.

John McCarthy, Born Spitalfields, General Shop Keeper, and wife Mary.
And..
John McCarthy, Born Dieppe, France, Grocer, and wife Elizabeth.

Who said this case was simple

Just a thought, but I wonder if the two John McCarthys were related? Anyone know.

[Wickerman]

Hi Mr B

Regarding McCarthy. McCarthy was born born in Dieppe France, didn’t Kelly say she went to France?

Hi Natasha.
Are you sure you have the right McCarthy?

The census for 1891 shows two John McCarthy's living at No. 27.

John McCarthy, Born Spitalfields, General Shop Keeper, and wife Mary.
And..
John McCarthy, Born Dieppe, France, Grocer, and wife Elizabeth.

Who said this case was simple

[Natasha]

Hi,

It probably depends on how kind a man, McCarthy was, or indeed how shrewd a business man he was. After all debt is a sort of possession. She couldnt leave, could she? She had the same problem as Oscar Wilde when the hotel found out that he couldnt pay the bill and so wouldnt release his clothes. So he had to stay there until he found the money.

Hi Hatchett

I just feel that if Kelly couldn't pay her bill, McCarthy would kick her out and put the arrears down to a loss rather then increase the debt and lose more money when he could rent the room to someone else. I suspect Kelly was on really good terms with McCarthy for him to allow the arrears to increase. And if he was somehow involved with her murder what else, rather then the debt, would be the motive?

I get what your saying about the possession thing, could McCarthy have had more of an interest in Kelly for whatever reason, then Kelly had in him?

[Hatchett]

Hi,

It probably depends on how kind a man, McCarthy was, or indeed how shrewd a business man he was. After all debt is a sort of possession. She couldnt leave, could she? She had the same problem as Oscar Wilde when the hotel found out that he couldnt pay the bill and so wouldnt release his clothes. So he had to stay there until he found the money.

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha,

My sad McCarthy effort below was not entirely tongue in cheek, though. It has always struck me as a bit of a coincidence that he chose that morning to chase Mary for the rent.

MrB

Hi Mr B

Regarding McCarthy. McCarthy was born born in Dieppe France, didn’t Kelly say she went to France?

MJK had his picture by her bed, according to Kendall

I don't think the rent was the motive. I suspect the landlords in those days would not allow the rent to get in arrears to the amount Kelly's was in

[GUT]

G'day Lynn

Hello GUT. Thanks.

Could be, PROVIDED not nee Kelly. Welsh colliery explosions have been investigated and NO Davies had married a Mary Kelly.

I trust you have the late Chris Scott's book on "MJK"?

Cheers.
LC

I had it but was foolish enough to lend it to someone. One thing that I am wary of though are birth and marriage records, if records are to be believed my Great Grandfather was never born and a his dad never arrived in Australia even though he died here and was married here.

[Sam Flynn]

Maybe if the face was delicately cleaned of the blood, and devoid of stitches it might have looked a teeny tiny bit clearer, although I know it would be highly unlikely if Eddowes's face is anything to go by.

Quite so, Natasha.