Murder, what murder?

[Roy Corduroy]

I think Mary Kelly the murder victim was who she said she was, and who the East Enders knew her as. She was an immigrant. There was no group of immigrants to England and Wales as large in number as the Irish. Not Jewish, nor German, the Hugenots, nobody you can think of. And this immigration continued for centuries. The Irish came singly, as in the case of Mary Kelly, or in family groups. They were often in dire straits financially, and ended up, initially in the poorest housing, the poorest sections of cities and towns such as Liverpool and London. And so it was with Mary Kelly. Her route to the rookeries of Spitalfields was a shortened version of what took until middle age for some of the other victims.

That Mary Kelly cannot be traced with certainty in census, birth and other records doesn't mean it's not her. The fact she left home as a single person at a young age makes for a more difficult research prospect.

The idea of a body switch, informants and all the rest, well, it's just daydreaming I suppose. That can be fun, and has entertainment value.

Roy

[MrBarnett]

Hi Wickerman,

But what point would there have been in exaggerating Kelly's rent arrears? Barnett wasn't likely to pay it. It hardly enhanced McCarthy's hard man image. And announcing that a murder victim was someone you had been chasing for a debt wasn't exactly keeping a low profile with the police.

Possibly McC. had swallowed Mary's stories about her well-to-do relatives or maybe, just maybe, it was a pretext for sending Bowyer to no.13 that particular morning.

MrB

[Wickerman]

So, bearing in mind the thread we are on, is it not conceivable that a homeless Hutch popped his head into the shop for a warm, .....

Conceivable yes, so long as we are not being entertained with "its irrefutable", "its proven", or "everybody knows"!

(just teasing)
On a more serious note:

McCarthy complains that Mary is weeks behind in her rent, claiming that business is so poor these recent cold nights .....

This must be the most unbelievable aspect, the enormous debt.
Although Barnett never contested it, he didn't acknowledge it either.
And, if Kelly was so far behind in rent, it is strange that the McCarthy's sold her a candle on the Wednesday, but didn't insist she put the money towards her debt.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Gareth,

I agree McCarthy was probably a pretty tough operator and would have had no problem dealing with run of the mill debt collection. But I suspect there may have been a personal element in his relationship with Kelly that precluded the use of his usual strong-arm tactics.

So, bearing in mind the thread we are on, is it not conceivable that a homeless Hutch popped his head into the shop for a warm, and the conversation turned to their mutual 'friend' Mary. McCarthy complains that Mary is weeks behind in her rent, claiming that business is so poor these recent cold nights that she couldn't possibly pay any of the debt off, and Hutch thinks it might be worth his while to hang about for an hour or two check it out and maybe earn some dropsy from McCarthy?

MrB

[pinkmoon]

Hi I have a theory that may be a bit controversial but here goes

Could it be that there never was a murder at Millers Court? Could it not be possible that MJK was in fact some kind of informant and had information that threatened her life? You may say, "but hang on there was a body".This might sound nasty but maybe the police had to instigate a 'set up' of murder (what if the body used was already expired, due to natural causes, illness etc) in order to protect Kelly from being harmed.

The argument against a murder:

Mary was seen by a couple of witnesses after her 'death'

No family member has ever claimed the body, that is a strange fact, why would no one come looking? Mr McCarthy said she had received letters from her family. Even if Kelly didn't want to be found, family would still inquire as to her where abouts.

The face of 'MJK' was severally attacked, that suggests someone trying to obscure the identity, of course if that wasn't Kelly, it needed to be obscured. Barnett identified Kelly by her eyes & ears, now I know ears are an identifiable feature, but they were cut and it would be easy to plant the notion that the victim was Kelly, as for the eyes well of course the eyes would need to be roughly the same colour as Kellys' to make it look like it was her. I don't think Barnett would have stared (of course unless he was the perpetrator and that really was MJK who was murdered) at the body too long, as the victim was a loved one. So Barnett's judgement may have been impaired. Another point what if Barnett knew about this set up? There was also deep cuts on the arms (the other victims did not have these) was this in order to remove moles, scars etc on the body?

It is worth noting that nothing was mentioned about her hair. Now if Kelly was a red head (she was nick named ginger, I did read somewhere maybe it was because she liked ginger beer, but it could have been in reference to her hair as she was also nick named fair Emma, maybe she had a reddish blonde hair colouring) why was nothing said about her hair colour? Hair is not the most identifiable feature, but red hair is not really a common hair colour today, so why was her hair not mentioned as to identity purposes, seeing as there wasn't a lot else to identify her by upon viewing the body?

It has been suggested that Millers Court had possibly been watched by the police

The things she had in common with the other victims the most definite one was prostitution (I know it is possible that this was the motive for the ripper) The ripper strikes me as attacking weaker victims, the other victims could have been perceived as being less likely to put up a fight because of age, health etc. The other connection is that maybe she knew something about the ripper, and if she was in the killer's sights then that would be a plausible reason why.
Barnett said she was scared of a man. who was this man?

I think Mary Kelly committing suicide makes more sense than this

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam (or may I call you Gareth?)

Course you can, MrB.

I always like to include Hutch in my wilder flights of JTR fancy.

Don't we all?

I think there may be a slot for him as a look-out between McCarthy's bedtime and Indian Harry's involvement the next morning.

To be honest, I don't think McCarthy needed a lookout. He was a sufficiently canny and successful operator to manage his own affairs, and if one of his tenants fell into arrears, then I don't believe he'd have worried unduly. He must have seen it all before.

[Cogidubnus]

Oh God

So you, as a controller of some kind, have this valuable witness or agent, who's safety it is vital to procure...this implies somebody at least fairly sensible or of future value, otherwise you'd simply top her to secure her silence...another JtR victim or torso perhaps...

So you do the ultimate cover-up - you secure some sucker to take her place, (it has to be someone alive to explain the bleeding/splashing), and have her slaughtered...meanwhile secreting your valued agent/witness in a place of safety...jeez...bloody murder...this HAS to be someone really valuable...

Then inexplicably your valued agent or witness is stupid enough to emerge from her place of safety, return to her former surroundings in her original clothing, engage in conversation with a neighbour and then go pissing it up in the local pub, (one of thousands in the metropolis)...and you as a controller are stupid enough to let her?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be offensive...I know some of you are harmlessly taking the p1ss, but do the rest of you even think about what you're typing, or are the responses automatic?

All the best

Dave

[MrBarnett]

Hi Sam (or may I call you Gareth?),

I always like to include Hutch in my wilder flights of JTR fancy. I think there may be a slot for him as a look-out between McCarthy's bedtime and Indian Harry's involvement the next morning.

MrB

[Sam Flynn]

Of course, if [McCarthy] set a spy to watch for business activity in Miller's Court, he may have had a heads up that Mary was in coin.

McCarthy hardly needed a spy, as he could have kept an eye on any comings and goings himself. His shop, adjoining Miller's Court, was usually open until 1 AM or later - as it was on the morning of Kelly's death - and he was manning the counter. It was for this reason that he dispatched Bowyer to collect the rent.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Hatch,

Yep, that's what always seemed sus to me. Of course, if he'd set a spy to watch for business activity in Miller's Court, he may have had a heads up that Mary was in coin.

Otherwise, it was very fortunate for him that he was not the first on the scene, it was one of his minions that could be relied upon to report back to him and allow him to take control of the reporting of the crime to the police.

MrB

[Hatchett]

Hi,

Talking about McCarthy, it does seem strange that he was looking for his back rent on the day of the Lord Mayor's parade, a bank holiday, and a day of happy release for all.

Best wishes.

[lynn cates]

collusion

Hello Natasha. Thanks.

Of course, Dr. Phillips also was at autopsy. So you would need a huge collusion for this to work.

Cheers.
LC

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha,

Your fresh take on things is a breath of fresh air, but many people on here are deeply scarred from exposure to some of the wilder conspiracy theories that have surfaced over the years.

My sad McCarthy effort below was not entirely tongue in cheek, though. It has always struck me as a bit of a coincidence that he chose that morning to chase Mary for the rent.

MrB

Hi Mr B

Thank You

You may have something there with the McCarthy suggestion. I have mentioned, in a posting somewhere on ere, before that It was said, by Fiona Kendall, McCarthy's relative, "she (MJK) kept a photo of her notable ancestor by the bed". Now when I first read that I thought Kendall was saying MJK kept a photo of her (MJK's) notable ancestor, but someone else on here said that Kendall was talking about McCarthy

This maybe well worth looking into!

[MrBarnett]

Hi Natasha,

Your fresh take on things is a breath of fresh air, but many people on here are deeply scarred from exposure to some of the wilder conspiracy theories that have surfaced over the years.

My sad McCarthy effort below was not entirely tongue in cheek, though. It has always struck me as a bit of a coincidence that he chose that morning to chase Mary for the rent.

MrB

[packers stem]

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=2820

This should be it