Murder, what murder?

[Natasha]

Such a photograph may have once existed - it still might, indeed. Sadly, given the utter carnage wrought on Kelly's face, not even the most skillful mortician could have stitched it back together such that it could be used for ID purposes. Her features were destroyed to such an extent that all you'd see would be the occasional island of puffy flesh in an ocean of stitches.

Hi Sam

I did think that myself

Maybe if the face was delicately cleaned of the blood, and devoid of stitches it might have looked a teeny tiny bit clearer, although I know it would be highly unlikely if Eddowes's face is anything to go by.

[Sam Flynn]

I'm not talking about the pictures taken at Millers Court. I think it would be feasible that a picture was taken at a mortuary. I think it should have been after the body was cleaned.

Such a photograph may have once existed - it still might, indeed. Sadly, given the utter carnage wrought on Kelly's face, not even the most skillful mortician could have stitched it back together such that it could be used for ID purposes. Her features were destroyed to such an extent that all you'd see would be the occasional island of puffy flesh in an ocean of stitches.

[Natasha]

Hello Natasha. Thanks.

Are we sure she was in the infirmary?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn

No one can say for sure. I did point out that she had adhesions on the lungs and there COULD be some possibility she was in an infirmary/hospital, but I also said these adhesions could have been due to lividity

[lynn cates]

surety

Hello Natasha. Thanks.

Are we sure she was in the infirmary?

Cheers.
LC

[Natasha]

Hello Natasha. Thanks.

Might try the left sidebar at Casebook. Should find the photos and documents you seek.

Regarding Kelly's infirmary records--perhaps:

1. Kelly is the wrong name.

or

2. Her Welsh antecedents were fabricated.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn

I'm not talking about the pictures taken at Millers Court. I think it would be feasible that a picture was taken at a mortuary. I think it should have been after the body was cleaned

In regards to the infirmary reports etc, I mean all of the collections (for certain parts of Wales) of the files are gone, so even if you were to check under one of those names, there would be no point coz there are none of them files left in the first place. So we don't know who was in those files.

If the welsh connection is fabricated, then the next step is to review infirmary files elsewhere.
The issue of the lungs, firm adhesions on the lungs, Kelly could be telling the truth and may have had TB etc, or these adhesions could have been due to lividity.

[lynn cates]

perhaps

Hello Natasha. Thanks.

Might try the left sidebar at Casebook. Should find the photos and documents you seek.

Regarding Kelly's infirmary records--perhaps:

1. Kelly is the wrong name.

or

2. Her Welsh antecedents were fabricated.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Davies

Hello GUT. Thanks.

Could be, PROVIDED not nee Kelly. Welsh colliery explosions have been investigated and NO Davies had married a Mary Kelly.

I trust you have the late Chris Scott's book on "MJK"?

Cheers.
LC

[Natasha]

Natasha.

Dr Bond's report is only a preamble, Bond was hired by Warren/Anderson to offer his opinion on the wounds, it was not intended to be an exhaustive post-mortem report.
There is a press article that suggests the conclusions arrived at in this report were agreed to for the most part by Dr Phillips.

The actual post-mortem report by Phillips will have covered several pages, you can look at the example of his work on that of McKenzie, and she had relatively minor mutilations compared with those of Mary Kelly.

Dr. Bond's report was penned in response to a request from Anderson, it was not intended to replace the official report created by Dr Phillips.

I think that if it was a conspiracy constructed by some higher power(s), everyone would have to play along with it.

Something just doesn't add up with the Kelly case

[Wickerman]

Natasha.

Dr Bond's report is only a preamble, Bond was hired by Warren/Anderson to offer his opinion on the wounds, it was not intended to be an exhaustive post-mortem report.
There is a press article that suggests the conclusions arrived at in this report were agreed to for the most part by Dr Phillips.

The actual post-mortem report by Phillips will have covered several pages, you can look at the example of his work on that of McKenzie, and she had relatively minor mutilations compared with those of Mary Kelly.

Dr. Bond's report was penned in response to a request from Anderson, it was not intended to replace the official report created by Dr Phillips.

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha,don't let the banter put you off your research.Very little changes on here and any suggestions that hint at any sort of motive are likely to produce a few cackles but it's all good natured.......usually
I posted a lot along similar lines to your thinking a few years ago and it's far too much to go repeating in full but most of it was on the thread 'maxwell' ,i'll try in a minute to remember how to put a link on lol.

All the best

Hi packers Stem

Thank you for the encouragement, I think there are elements in the Kelly case that don't add up, so will keep researching

[Natasha]

Hello Natasha. Thanks.

Of course, Dr. Phillips also was at autopsy. So you would need a huge collusion for this to work.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Where is Dr Philips autopsy report, or at least copies of what he wrote, if he was transcribing for Bond, Is there any original Drafts of Bonds report?
I’m sure it was pointed out somewhere that technically Dr Philips should have conducted the autopsy and his name should have been on the autopsy paperwork. Now if I’m right about this, could it be that Bonds report is a fake, written by someone else trying to cover up a conspiracy of some sort? Or is the real report still out there? The question of Kitty Ronan: could the bond report deliberately have been mixed up with this case or could elements of the report have been mixed up maybe by accident? I know there is 18 years between these murders, but is it not a little too coincidental that Bonds report was ’lost’. Look at the similarities: Kelly killed at 13 millers court Kitty at 12 millers court, the meals the victims ate, fish & potatoes (was mentioned in Bonds report, so slightly significant), the name Kitty and Kelly. They are roughly the same age and are similar in appearance.
The detectives in charge of their cases: Frederick Porter Wensley (kitty), Frederick Abberline (Kelly), (there's a picture of Wensley, no picture of Abberline, Abberline seems a very important part of the ripper case, where is his pic?

I’m very interested in finding the autopsy report for Kitty.

Where is Kelly's mortuary pic? I feel the coroners etc would at least attempt to reconstruct her face as best they can for identity purposes, so it would be interesting to see what that pic looks like.

Now, newspaper reports, there are newspaper reports that are missing,
I find it quite annoying that there is a lot of information about Kelly that has been ’destroyed’ like infirmary/workhouse admissions etc in some areas of Wales. Every time I have tried to research her past using information given about her, I have encountered missing information.

I’m not 100% sure on my original theory, I’m just thinking outside the box!

[GUT]

G'day Lynn

How about Davies then?

[lynn cates]

name

Hello GUT. Thanks.

Right. But I daresay, WHATEVER her name was, Kelly was NOT her cognomen.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

We sometimes act as though McCarthy was a latter day Bill Sykes but nothing in what I've seen shows him in a particularly bad light. He was probably a sharp business man and certainly no angel but he doesn't seem to have an extensive record of police involvement. He defended the reputation of the area in a public forum and was apparently well thought of enough to be considered an effective spokesman.

Does anybody here have any information that paints him in a darker tone? Reports of violence either in person or by his order?

Off hand, I recall reading his name in the press more than once, and Tom Wescott provides a few interesting circumstances concerning McCarthy in the chapter, The Lords of Spitalfields, in The Bank Holiday Murders, 2014.

[GUT]

Hello Penhalion.

"Does anybody here have any information that paints him in a darker tone? Reports of violence either in person or by his order?"

I think the new fashion is to suspect those who are punctual and pay their bills.

Cheers.
LC

Well if we believe McCarthy [and I see no reason not too] that doesn't apply to Mary or Marie or whatever her damn name was.