Murder, what murder?

[Natasha]

Hi I have a theory that may be a bit controversial but here goes

Could it be that there never was a murder at Millers Court? Could it not be possible that MJK was in fact some kind of informant and had information that threatened her life? You may say, "but hang on there was a body".This might sound nasty but maybe the police had to instigate a 'set up' of murder (what if the body used was already expired, due to natural causes, illness etc) in order to protect Kelly from being harmed.

The argument against a murder:

Mary was seen by a couple of witnesses after her 'death'

No family member has ever claimed the body, that is a strange fact, why would no one come looking? Mr McCarthy said she had received letters from her family. Even if Kelly didn't want to be found, family would still inquire as to her where abouts.

The face of 'MJK' was severally attacked, that suggests someone trying to obscure the identity, of course if that wasn't Kelly, it needed to be obscured. Barnett identified Kelly by her eyes & ears, now I know ears are an identifiable feature, but they were cut and it would be easy to plant the notion that the victim was Kelly, as for the eyes well of course the eyes would need to be roughly the same colour as Kellys' to make it look like it was her. I don't think Barnett would have stared (of course unless he was the perpetrator and that really was MJK who was murdered) at the body too long, as the victim was a loved one. So Barnett's judgement may have been impaired. Another point what if Barnett knew about this set up? There was also deep cuts on the arms (the other victims did not have these) was this in order to remove moles, scars etc on the body?

It is worth noting that nothing was mentioned about her hair. Now if Kelly was a red head (she was nick named ginger, I did read somewhere maybe it was because she liked ginger beer, but it could have been in reference to her hair as she was also nick named fair Emma, maybe she had a reddish blonde hair colouring) why was nothing said about her hair colour? Hair is not the most identifiable feature, but red hair is not really a common hair colour today, so why was her hair not mentioned as to identity purposes, seeing as there wasn't a lot else to identify her by upon viewing the body?

It has been suggested that Millers Court had possibly been watched by the police

The things she had in common with the other victims the most definite one was prostitution (I know it is possible that this was the motive for the ripper) The ripper strikes me as attacking weaker victims, the other victims could have been perceived as being less likely to put up a fight because of age, health etc. The other connection is that maybe she knew something about the ripper, and if she was in the killer's sights then that would be a plausible reason why.
Barnett said she was scared of a man. who was this man?

[Penhalion]

I think that you ask some very interesting questions, and I would like to ask one of you.

Why?

The plot as you have outlined it would be very complex, needs a fortuitous look alike corpse (reasonably fresh), and would take several people all working in concert to pull off.....for what? If Mary did have some important information and needed to be kept safe, why not just spirit her off? People disappeared from Whitechapel all the time, while her disappearance might have been remarked on by a few, it certainly wouldn't have generated more than a passing thought for most people. There are a lot of places in England/Scotland/Wales she could have been hidden away safely. If you consider the whole of the British Empire at the time, she could have gone to the other side of the planet which would have put her safely out of harms way and given her a chance to start a new life.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, there's no precedent for a deception of this order until the deep espionage games of WWII. If you are going to suggest that they created this level of misdirection for Mary, there must be some deep level of knowledge that she had to inspire/justify it and simply being 'afraid of a man' really doesn't do it.

[MrBarnett]

This is just a parlour game, right? I'd hate to be associated with this as a genuine theory, but here's a possible 'Why?':

To blackmail someone. Someone who could be linked to Kelly if he did not toe the line. No need to go as far as to actually kill someone. Just spirit Kelly off to a safe house somewhere and replace her with a suitably disfigured cadaver from a mortuary or teaching hospital.

It's no more wacky a concept than Operation Mincemeat.

MrB

[Natasha]

Why?

Maybe she was an important informant and needed reassurance that she would be safe, refusing to give any info till she did

People disappear all the time, yeah you are right but missing people can be found. Now if someone is believed to be dead you wouldn't think about looking for them.

I'm not 100% sure about this theory myself, I suggested it because it hadn't been mentioned before (as far as I know) so forgive me if it sounds too ludicrous. I thought it would perhaps open up more avenues of ideas.
After all there is a lot of repetition on this site, just wanted to freshen up the theories.

[lynn cates]

alternatives

Hello Natasha. Interesting theory.

For this to work, it seems that a cadaver must have been sent in and mutilated. But, forensically, the blood splashes, etc. seem to have come from a body killed and mutilated on site.

The other alternative is that a dupe was selected and killed/mutilated. And I think the Met and even SB would be forbidden by law so to do. (heh-heh)

Perhaps this theory could be emended?

Cheers.
LC

[Penhalion]

I'm certainly willing to play with this as possible theory, but even theories need something to support them.

Operation Mincemeat was motivated by life/death wartime considerations to obscure a major military operation. Was it wacky? Sure. But with stakes that high, wacky starts looking possible. What kind of stakes could we theorize as being worth all that effort to hide a near homeless prostitute with no family of note, no social contacts other than those of a similar class, and who was living on the ragged edge of poverty? What might be possible information that would motivate someone to go to this extreme?

If it was simply that a certain gentleman had enjoyed her favors- really? Not that big a deal. Even if she made a public accusation, all he would have to do is point out her background and station compared to his and *poof* she's a liar and he's vindicated.

If we are going to explore the possibility that MJK had a dangerous secret which motivated an elaborate cover-up, we must consider what that secret might have been.

[c.d.]

Work the number 39 into this theory and I think we have a winner.

c.d.

[MrBarnett]

What if the party at risk was a little higher up the social scale than a mere 'gentleman'? So high in fact that a threat to him was a threat to the entire establishment. He may have had some socially unacceptable tastes which brought him into contact with an individual who was not well disposed to the British establishment.

And perhaps the potential threat from that individual was not so easy to neutralise. He may have been a foreign national, perhaps he was an outspoken supporter of Fenianism, who couldn't just be locked up or bumped off without causing political waves.

A reasonably fresh cadaver, a little additional pigs blood to set the scene, oh and a mickey finn administered to the troublemaker, and 'problem solved'.


MrB

[MrBarnett]

Oh, I almost forgot the lookout. You'd need someone lurking about in Dorset Street to ensure you weren't interrupted.

And Mary would be have to be set up with a nice little hat shop in Harrogate and told to keep shtum.

Still a work in progress, obviously, but if we get a move on, it could be in the shops by Christmas.

MrB

[Natasha]

Hello Natasha. Interesting theory.

For this to work, it seems that a cadaver must have been sent in and mutilated. But, forensically, the blood splashes, etc. seem to have come from a body killed and mutilated on site.

The other alternative is that a dupe was selected and killed/mutilated. And I think the Met and even SB would be forbidden by law so to do. (heh-heh)

Perhaps this theory could be emended?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn

It doesn’t necessarily have had to be the police that staged the murder scene. What if Kelly wanted to kill off her identity and asked someone for their assistance, maybe because of the man she was scared of, or something else?

There appears be a longer time period for this murder compared to the other murders, could that be because they were waiting for a possible match for their plan to work? It might be useful to research obituaries etc.

Now the question about grave robbing. Why would it not be possible to obtain a body from the cemetery unseen? After all the ripper was operating right under the nose of the police. Part of the reason that made me think of this theory was Burke & Hare.

Does anyone have any idea how the letter to Norfolk (if it was relevant to the 'murder') would fit into this?

The picture of Kelly is quite grainy as we cannot see it properly, we can not ascertain weather the splashes are consistent with a murder having taken place at Millers Court. Animal blood could have been used, after all the coroner etc had no way of distinguishing animal from human blood, and their forensic techniques were not as advanced as today.

[Harry D]

Wait, wait, wait. I'm confused about the theory.

So the cops knew that internal affairs were setting them up?

[Hatchett]

Hi,

Can I join in?

Of course, considering that no one has gotten very far in tracing the background of Kelly, it could be that she wasnt of the class that is assumed.
The working class prostitute could have been a false identity.

At the time there were the Fenian threats. Also 1888 was a time of tremendous social change and social out rage.

There were all sorts of nationalities living in Whitechapel at the time, coming from parts of the world that were all going through explosive times, and power struggles that would eventually lead up to the First World War.

In times of severe unrest, hysterical things happen.

So who knows?

[Penhalion]

If she WASN'T a near homeless, 4 pence-a-shag prostitute, then she was hardcore undercover. Or was Joe Barnett in on it too?

Admittedly, the inability to find any record of her before she appeared in Whitechapel is a significant problem, but I'm not entirely sure we can extrapolate from that to a vastly different life than she reported.

[lynn cates]

autopsy

Hello Natasha. Thanks.

If it were an exhumed body, surely such would have been detected at autopsy?

Cheers.
LC

[MrBarnett]

As Lynn suggests, unless the medics are part of the conspiracy it would have to be a very fresh corpse. And as Penhalion points out, there would have to some kind of existential threat to the establishment or to an individual to warrant such an elaborate and gruesome hoax.

Of course, this needn't be some grand, pre-planned establishment conspiracy. What if a prostitute pal of Mary's was killed by McCarthy, say, angry that his premises were being used as a brothel or, conversely, that he was being stiffed of his cut of the takings.

The crime scene is then set to make it look like a ripper killing, Mary is packed off to the hat shop in Harrogate and the next day an unwitting Indian Harry is sent round to Kelly's to ask for the rent.

MrB