Murder, what murder?

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam (or may I call you Gareth?)

Course you can, MrB.

I always like to include Hutch in my wilder flights of JTR fancy.

Don't we all?

I think there may be a slot for him as a look-out between McCarthy's bedtime and Indian Harry's involvement the next morning.

To be honest, I don't think McCarthy needed a lookout. He was a sufficiently canny and successful operator to manage his own affairs, and if one of his tenants fell into arrears, then I don't believe he'd have worried unduly. He must have seen it all before.

[pinkmoon]

Hi I have a theory that may be a bit controversial but here goes

Could it be that there never was a murder at Millers Court? Could it not be possible that MJK was in fact some kind of informant and had information that threatened her life? You may say, "but hang on there was a body".This might sound nasty but maybe the police had to instigate a 'set up' of murder (what if the body used was already expired, due to natural causes, illness etc) in order to protect Kelly from being harmed.

The argument against a murder:

Mary was seen by a couple of witnesses after her 'death'

No family member has ever claimed the body, that is a strange fact, why would no one come looking? Mr McCarthy said she had received letters from her family. Even if Kelly didn't want to be found, family would still inquire as to her where abouts.

The face of 'MJK' was severally attacked, that suggests someone trying to obscure the identity, of course if that wasn't Kelly, it needed to be obscured. Barnett identified Kelly by her eyes & ears, now I know ears are an identifiable feature, but they were cut and it would be easy to plant the notion that the victim was Kelly, as for the eyes well of course the eyes would need to be roughly the same colour as Kellys' to make it look like it was her. I don't think Barnett would have stared (of course unless he was the perpetrator and that really was MJK who was murdered) at the body too long, as the victim was a loved one. So Barnett's judgement may have been impaired. Another point what if Barnett knew about this set up? There was also deep cuts on the arms (the other victims did not have these) was this in order to remove moles, scars etc on the body?

It is worth noting that nothing was mentioned about her hair. Now if Kelly was a red head (she was nick named ginger, I did read somewhere maybe it was because she liked ginger beer, but it could have been in reference to her hair as she was also nick named fair Emma, maybe she had a reddish blonde hair colouring) why was nothing said about her hair colour? Hair is not the most identifiable feature, but red hair is not really a common hair colour today, so why was her hair not mentioned as to identity purposes, seeing as there wasn't a lot else to identify her by upon viewing the body?

It has been suggested that Millers Court had possibly been watched by the police

The things she had in common with the other victims the most definite one was prostitution (I know it is possible that this was the motive for the ripper) The ripper strikes me as attacking weaker victims, the other victims could have been perceived as being less likely to put up a fight because of age, health etc. The other connection is that maybe she knew something about the ripper, and if she was in the killer's sights then that would be a plausible reason why.
Barnett said she was scared of a man. who was this man?

I think Mary Kelly committing suicide makes more sense than this

[MrBarnett]

Hi Gareth,

I agree McCarthy was probably a pretty tough operator and would have had no problem dealing with run of the mill debt collection. But I suspect there may have been a personal element in his relationship with Kelly that precluded the use of his usual strong-arm tactics.

So, bearing in mind the thread we are on, is it not conceivable that a homeless Hutch popped his head into the shop for a warm, and the conversation turned to their mutual 'friend' Mary. McCarthy complains that Mary is weeks behind in her rent, claiming that business is so poor these recent cold nights that she couldn't possibly pay any of the debt off, and Hutch thinks it might be worth his while to hang about for an hour or two check it out and maybe earn some dropsy from McCarthy?

MrB

[Wickerman]

So, bearing in mind the thread we are on, is it not conceivable that a homeless Hutch popped his head into the shop for a warm, .....

Conceivable yes, so long as we are not being entertained with "its irrefutable", "its proven", or "everybody knows"!

(just teasing)
On a more serious note:

McCarthy complains that Mary is weeks behind in her rent, claiming that business is so poor these recent cold nights .....

This must be the most unbelievable aspect, the enormous debt.
Although Barnett never contested it, he didn't acknowledge it either.
And, if Kelly was so far behind in rent, it is strange that the McCarthy's sold her a candle on the Wednesday, but didn't insist she put the money towards her debt.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Wickerman,

But what point would there have been in exaggerating Kelly's rent arrears? Barnett wasn't likely to pay it. It hardly enhanced McCarthy's hard man image. And announcing that a murder victim was someone you had been chasing for a debt wasn't exactly keeping a low profile with the police.

Possibly McC. had swallowed Mary's stories about her well-to-do relatives or maybe, just maybe, it was a pretext for sending Bowyer to no.13 that particular morning.

MrB

[Roy Corduroy]

I think Mary Kelly the murder victim was who she said she was, and who the East Enders knew her as. She was an immigrant. There was no group of immigrants to England and Wales as large in number as the Irish. Not Jewish, nor German, the Hugenots, nobody you can think of. And this immigration continued for centuries. The Irish came singly, as in the case of Mary Kelly, or in family groups. They were often in dire straits financially, and ended up, initially in the poorest housing, the poorest sections of cities and towns such as Liverpool and London. And so it was with Mary Kelly. Her route to the rookeries of Spitalfields was a shortened version of what took until middle age for some of the other victims.

That Mary Kelly cannot be traced with certainty in census, birth and other records doesn't mean it's not her. The fact she left home as a single person at a young age makes for a more difficult research prospect.

The idea of a body switch, informants and all the rest, well, it's just daydreaming I suppose. That can be fun, and has entertainment value.

Roy

[Wickerman]

Possibly McC. had swallowed Mary's stories about her well-to-do relatives...

MrB

I think it was common practice at the time to expect the living relatives to make amends, settle any outstanding debts, especially those incurred by a female.
Opportunity Knocks!

[MrBarnett]

Among working class people, I wouldn't have thought so.

But perhaps Kelly had convinced Jack (McC) that her family were well off.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Roy,

Are you suggesting that the reason that Mary was the youngest victim was that she was Irish ?

MrB

[Barnaby]

Yes, this has the fingerprints of Mycroft Holmes all over it.

[Damaso Marte]

Doesn't lynn cates actually believe some variant of this conspiracy theory? He is constantly hinting at his view of the MJK killing as a "spy drama" without explaining much further.

[Hatchett]

Hi,

I suppose it is just possible that McCathy made up the arrears to avoid any suspicion from the Police that he was gaining from a prosititute paying her rent from immoral earnings.

Just a thought.

Best wishes.

[GUT]

Hi,

I suppose it is just possible that McCathy made up the arrears to avoid any suspicion from the Police that he was gaining from a prosititute paying her rent from immoral earnings.

Just a thought.

Best wishes.

G'day Hatchett

A suggestion 've heard before, or that he hoped someone else might pay. The real problem is that sooner or later you have to make a call, do you [and I mean that in general and not you in particular] believe any statements or suspect them all, personally I believe the man that he was owed substantial arrears in rent by Mary and Joe.

[Roy Corduroy]

Good morning Mr B

Hi Roy,
Are you suggesting that the reason that Mary was the youngest victim was that she was Irish ?

Yes I am. In Mary's case it was the unique situation of emigrating from Ireland and then making her way alone in the big city of London which put her in a vulnerable situation. This all happened rather quickly for her, compared with the long slow slide to the rookeries experienced by some of the other victims.

Roy

[MrBarnett]

Hi Roy,

It's a wet afternoon here.

Actually, if we believe the story, Mary came to London via Cardiff, a Welsh port city where she possibly learned her trade. Couldn't a Welsh girl have followed a similar path? And if the port city had been Bristol, a West Country English girl?

MrB