Finding more out about MJK

[Natasha]

Thanks Natasha
The woman who died in 1894 is definitely the mother of the woman you proposed as a possible MJK.
Her husband Jean Kelly Snowden was a doctor from England.

Hi Debra

Thank you

Now that is very very interesting, the doctor connection.

Do you think Jeanne could have been MJK?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Natasha

Judging by the fact that John McCarthy had a shop and rooms to let, I would assume he was not poverty stricken. Also Mrs McCarthy of Breezers hill also owned property and again I would not say she was destitute.

So, using your argument:

I just went on the assumption that because there are photos of Chapman, and other poor people, then there surely would be as least one picture of the any of the witness s etc

did the McCarthys have photographs taken?

All the best

Dave

[Natasha]

Hi Dave

I'm sure that a lot of people who have fallen on hard times, have had a comfortable life before hand.

I just think its a bit unusual that of all of the people who was connected specifically to Kelly there is not a one pic that has been found. As we all know MJK is a popular victim among a lot of people interested in the JTR case and I feel sure that someone, perhaps Chris Scott, would have found one.
I know you said that some of the unofficial ripper victims have not got any pics etc, but for reasons I mentioned above, that is perhaps a possible reason why none have been found.

Also according to a descendent of John McCarthy, Fiona Kendall, she said that MJK kept McCarthy's pic by her bed, if that's true where is it?

[Cogidubnus]

No Natasha, what I implied, and now state unequivocably, is that, as far as we know, NONE of the ripper victims, canonical or not, apart from Chapman, had a living photograph taken...so MJK is certainly NOT unusual in this respect.

All the best

Dave

[Natasha]

Hi Dave

I accept that MJK may not have had a pic taken, I was just questioning the lack of pictures of people who were connected to her, witness s, friends, landlords etc

I accept that the lack of pictures taken of Kelly is not unusual, I was not questioning that.

[pinkmoon]

School could be a place where a photo might have been taken of poor Mary.

[GUT]

School could be a place where a photo might have been taken of poor Mary.

I doubt it in about 1880.

[pinkmoon]

I doubt it in about 1880.

It's a long shot but you never know

[Mayerling]

Hi Gut

I just went on the assumption that because there are photos of Chapman, and other poor people, then there surely would be as least one picture of the any of the witness s etc. It just struck me a little bit strange that of all the people connected to Kelly, there is not a single picture found. Even the lack of pictures of Abberline, you would definitely expect to find a picture of one of the most famous chief inspectors of the JTR case.

Made a mistake about Hutchinson, but I feel there is something bogus about him

If I am not mistaken the Whitechapel case was occurring just at the time that "cheap" cameras (like George Eastman's "Kodak") were just entering the market. If you wanted a photo in the 1880s or earlier you required the assistance of a studio photographer (like Matthew Brady through most of his career). Curiously, within a few years, certain criminals were photographed more frequently (Cream, Deeming, Dougal). In many cases it was egotism that spurred this on (especially with Cream who used a man named Armitage to take several studio portraits).

If we happen to have photos of criminals or victims before 1889 it is because they could afford studio pictures (like Dr. Edward William Pritchard, who liked to have his image on "carte de visite" he'd hand out), or because (like the Ripper victims) they had morgue photos. I was surprised five years ago to discover that the victims of Jean - Baptiste Troppman (the Kinck chldren and their mother) were photographed in the Paris morgue. I've seen the photo. That was from 1869. The Kinck was quite prosperous, but no pictures of the family when alive (as far as I know) ever turned up. Constance Kent was photographed in a studio picture that has been published many times, but her father was a government factory inspector. Her photos are from the late 1850s to 1865 when she went to prison. The Lincoln assassins were well photographed by the government when arrested, but only Booth (who was a celebrity actor) and Mrs. Surratt (a property owner) and Dr. Mudd (another property owner and professional man) were photographed outside of police/government custody.

Jeff

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Natasha

Also according to a descendent of John McCarthy, Fiona Kendall, she said that MJK kept McCarthy's pic by her bed, if that's true where is it?

So get her to produce it and prove it

All the best

Dave

[GUT]

Hi Dave

I'm sure that a lot of people who have fallen on hard times, have had a comfortable life before hand.

I just think its a bit unusual that of all of the people who was connected specifically to Kelly there is not a one pic that has been found. As we all know MJK is a popular victim among a lot of people interested in the JTR case and I feel sure that someone, perhaps Chris Scott, would have found one.
I know you said that some of the unofficial ripper victims have not got any pics etc, but for reasons I mentioned above, that is perhaps a possible reason why none have been found.

Also according to a descendent of John McCarthy, Fiona Kendall, she said that MJK kept McCarthy's pic by her bed, if that's true where is it?

And even if true, where do you think it would be 125 years later, probably destroyed who was going to keep it, McCarthy and explain to Mrs why she had it, Joe, why the hell would he want it?

[GUT]

And remember George Eastman's patent for photographic film was only taken out in 1884. Prior to this it was all plates film cameras really only came into their own at the start of WW I.

[Natasha]

If I am not mistaken the Whitechapel case was occurring just at the time that "cheap" cameras (like George Eastman's "Kodak") were just entering the market. If you wanted a photo in the 1880s or earlier you required the assistance of a studio photographer (like Matthew Brady through most of his career). Curiously, within a few years, certain criminals were photographed more frequently (Cream, Deeming, Dougal). In many cases it was egotism that spurred this on (especially with Cream who used a man named Armitage to take several studio portraits).

If we happen to have photos of criminals or victims before 1889 it is because they could afford studio pictures (like Dr. Edward William Pritchard, who liked to have his image on "carte de visite" he'd hand out), or because (like the Ripper victims) they had morgue photos. I was surprised five years ago to discover that the victims of Jean - Baptiste Troppman (the Kinck chldren and their mother) were photographed in the Paris morgue. I've seen the photo. That was from 1869. The Kinck was quite prosperous, but no pictures of the family when alive (as far as I know) ever turned up. Constance Kent was photographed in a studio picture that has been published many times, but her father was a government factory inspector. Her photos are from the late 1850s to 1865 when she went to prison. The Lincoln assassins were well photographed by the government when arrested, but only Booth (who was a celebrity actor) and Mrs. Surratt (a property owner) and Dr. Mudd (another property owner and professional man) were photographed outside of police/government custody.

Jeff

Hi Jeff

Thanks for the info

Now that you mention it, it would interesting to see (if they do exist) criminal mugshots pre 1889s that you speak of.
I know ancestry have some, the majority are from 1889 though.

[Natasha]

And even if true, where do you think it would be 125 years later, probably destroyed who was going to keep it, McCarthy and explain to Mrs why she had it, Joe, why the hell would he want it?

Yeah I guess it would be a little risky for him if his Mrs questioned why she hadn't seen the pic before for example.

Then again, if MJK really kept the pic by her bed, there may have been a chance that Mrs McCarthy might have seen it, then what? Could that mean that Mrs McCarthy was a possible suspect. Well stranger things have happened, but I don't think she was.

[Natasha]

And even if true, where do you think it would be 125 years later, probably destroyed who was going to keep it, McCarthy and explain to Mrs why she had it, Joe, why the hell would he want it?

Hi Gut

Was half asleep and did not read your post properly yesterday.

You make a good point about Joe

Also I don't think Joe would have approved of having the photo in there (if there was even a pic of McCarthy in there. If there is a pic why doesn't Kendall release it? I guess she is chatting crap). I mean if you think about it Joe didn't like Kelly going on the street, I take that as Joe having strong feelings for Kelly and I feel he didn't like the thought of sharing Kelly.