Finding more out about MJK

[Penhalion]

If MJK was 'an artist of no mean ability' then why was she living in a hovel, about to be evicted, and earning what little money she had as a tuppence a tup whore? Surely if she had skills like that, she would at least be able to get work in a decorators workshop or do small paintings/sketches to try to sell on the street. MJK is the only victim for whom we have no record of at least an attempt at non-sex work based earnings. As far as we know, she either lived off the kindness of men like Joe Barnett or earned her money the old fashioned way.

[Natasha]

Why would the inquest be short? It could be, and this is a guess, that there was no doubt in anyone's mind that Kelly was murdered and there were few witnesses. Plenty of time was given for the few witnesses to speak and for the jury to decide it was murder. If you read the inquest proceedings, you will see that the coroner specifically asked if they should meet again or save the minutiae for the police courts at a later date. The jury had had enough. The point of the inquest was to determine cause of death and that's it. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am.

As far as Kelly's family, who knows. Nothing nefarious.

Mike

I think Spiro mentioned the inquest, and said something was off in regards to both Eddowes & Kelly's inquest.

Because a lot of money could be made from it. In this day and age, the vast majority of people would love to have their 15 minutes of fame, especially if it came with stacks of bills.

And, no I would find it nearly unfathomable that she came from a rich family. You mentioned 6 brothers...and the father was a foreman...no riches there unless you decide what portion is made up and what isn't and then we get into the BS that we see all too often in the speculation on the boards.

Cheers,

Mike

Of course the pic would be worth money & a lot of interest now, but back then I don't think so.

I think she was lying about her family, because even though some relatives lived near by, they never came forward. Which makes me think there is more to who her real family were.

Why? Just because she fell on hard times? There are people who have been rich, and then lost their money and have been forced to live a s****y life.

If MJK was 'an artist of no mean ability' then why was she living in a hovel, about to be evicted, and earning what little money she had as a tuppence a tup whore? Surely if she had skills like that, she would at least be able to get work in a decorators workshop or do small paintings/sketches to try to sell on the street. MJK is the only victim for whom we have no record of at least an attempt at non-sex work based earnings. As far as we know, she either lived off the kindness of men like Joe Barnett or earned her money the old fashioned way.

Hi Pen,

That did cross my mind, and I thought that maybe because she wasn't established through a reputable school etc she wouldn't have been able to get a job. On the contrary, she may have done so in the past. It could be possible that she didn't really have a particular interest in art and didn't pursue it as a career.

As I've mentioned I am a naturally talented at drawing/painting, but I haven't drawn/painted in a long while. I'm not really interested in pursuing it as a career.

McCarthy allowed MJK to live at Millers Court, even though she was in arrears, that is a bit strange seeing as most landlords would have turfed people in arrears out. It happens today. So what makes Kelly special? I think there is definitely something more to this case.

[GUT]

If MJK was 'an artist of no mean ability' then why was she living in a hovel, about to be evicted, and earning what little money she had as a tuppence a tup whore? Surely if she had skills like that, she would at least be able to get work in a decorators workshop or do small paintings/sketches to try to sell on the street. MJK is the only victim for whom we have no record of at least an attempt at non-sex work based earnings. As far as we know, she either lived off the kindness of men like Joe Barnett or earned her money the old fashioned way.

Well at the same time we did have that bloke who was "an artist of no mean ability", who only survved by the grace of gifts from his family.

He's now considered a suspect by at least one person.


Oh I mean Van Gogh not the other one.

[Natasha]

Well at the same time we did have that bloke who was "an artist of no mean ability", who only survved by the grace of gifts from his family.

He's now considered a suspect by at least one person.


Oh I mean Van Gogh not the other one.

So do you think it possible that the quote by Mrs McCarthy could be applied to Kelly being an artist?

I don't think Van Gogh did it, just thought I would add that!

[GUT]

So do you think it possible that the quote by Mrs McCarthy could be applied to Kelly being an artist?

I don't think Van Gogh did it, just thought I would add that!

To put it simply I have no idea, she may have been the greatest artist ever to live or worse than me.

BUT if she were a great artist I suspect some work by her would survive and that in the list of possessions in No.13 there might be something related to art.

[markmorey5]

Natasha, you are putting a few disconnected facts together, to create a theory.
It is meaningless.
I Read the Life of Sickert by Matthew Sturgis

2 Mrs Carthy's flattering description was said to impress a newspaper man [she probably loved a story and had the Irish blarney] and make MK seem more interesting as none of it matches what we know. Also you forget MK was a whore, and' artist of no mean degree' could be a comment on her bedroom skills

3 If MK did go to France it was more likely to be a punter she met while whoring in Knightsbridge/ West End. Or she could have gone to a french brothel as many English girls were recruited for french brothels.

4 There is no verifiable connection between Sickert and MK

5 John McCarthy was born in France but spent his life in London.


Miss Marple

I agree with this entirely. The residents of Whitechapel lived terribly bleak lives where every day was the same as every other day except for Sunday, and the opportunity for five minutes of fame was often too good to pass up. Hence Mrs Carthy (probably Mary McCarthy aged 29 of Breezers Hill) making up a story about her former worker.

Sickert knew a prostitute named Mary Kelly who was average height with dark, bushy hair. This Mary Kelly wasn't Mary Jane Kelly who was much taller than average (taller than many men of the time) with long, probably red or possibly blonde hair.

The brothels of the West End and the brothels of Paris liked to offer variety to their regular clients, some of whom treated the brothel as a kind of club. So women were often swapped about and I suspect that Mary Kelly spent some time in a brothel in Paris. Tall with probable red hair and a fair complexion would have made Mary Jane Kelly a tradeable commodity in her day. However, the women in the brothels in the West End and in Paris had to pay a whole range of expenses out of their small percentage per client, so in reality they made very little and often found themselves in debt. The women often had to shout clients drinks, and this came out of their earnings. In France women in debt were sold to low-market brothels known as slaughterhouses. To me, Mary Kelly's move from the West End to Whitechapel can be explained by her either making very little money, or even avoiding finding herself indebted.

[GUT]

I agree with this entirely. The residents of Whitechapel lived terribly bleak lives where every day was the same as every other day except for Sunday, and the opportunity for five minutes of fame was often too good to pass up. Hence Mrs Carthy (probably Mary McCarthy aged 29 of Breezers Hill) making up a story about her former worker.

Sickert knew a prostitute named Mary Kelly who was average height with dark, bushy hair. This Mary Kelly wasn't Mary Jane Kelly who was much taller than average (taller than many men of the time) with long, probably red or possibly blonde hair.

The brothels of the West End and the brothels of Paris liked to offer variety to their regular clients, some of whom treated the brothel as a kind of club. So women were often swapped about and I suspect that Mary Kelly spent some time in a brothel in Paris. Tall with probable red hair and a fair complexion would have made Mary Jane Kelly a tradeable commodity in her day. However, the women in the brothels in the West End and in Paris had to pay a whole range of expenses out of their small percentage per client, so in reality they made very little and often found themselves in debt. The women often had to shout clients drinks, and this came out of their earnings. In France women in debt were sold to low-market brothels known as slaughterhouses. To me, Mary Kelly's move from the West End to Whitechapel can be explained by her either making very little money, or even avoiding finding herself indebted.

Or trying to get off the game and after she met Joe she probably thought she was out.

[markmorey5]

If MJK was 'an artist of no mean ability' then why was she living in a hovel, about to be evicted, and earning what little money she had as a tuppence a tup whore? Surely if she had skills like that, she would at least be able to get work in a decorators workshop or do small paintings/sketches to try to sell on the street. MJK is the only victim for whom we have no record of at least an attempt at non-sex work based earnings. As far as we know, she either lived off the kindness of men like Joe Barnett or earned her money the old fashioned way.

You are looking at this from the perspective of 2014 and not 1888. Even now the ability to perhaps sketch doesn't guarantee a liveable income, and in 1888 it would have been all but impossible for a woman to make a living as an artist, even if she were brilliant. Outside of art, women's wages for normal, full-time work, 12 hours a day Monday to Friday and a half-day Saturday, did not cover the cost of living. So a single woman of the time had two choices: find a man to live with, which Kelly did at least twice, or make extra money as a prostitute. There was, quite literally, no other way.

Reading Joe Barnett's statements I believe Kelly's relationship with Joe Fleming was as a regular client and perhaps a client she was fond of. Therefore we know that Kelly had a relationship with Morgan Stone (possibly Morganstern) and later with Barnett. When not in a relationship she worked as a prostitute, and probably worked again when Barnett lost his job.

The going rate for an attractive, younger woman like Mary Kelly was sixpence, which is roughly equivalent in real terms to what a street prostitute would earn today.

[The Good Michael]

Of course the pic would be worth money & a lot of interest now, but back then I don't think so.

Of course I'm talking about today. If photos had been taken, they would surface today if they still existed. If family members had a photo, they would have kept it safe as much as possible. If someone else had a photo, Barnett, or McCarthy, it would have been given to the police if there were no nefarious reasons not to. The authorities most definitely would have wanted to have a photo of her. So...I feel Kelly wasn't special enough to have had a photo taken. She didn't have the wherewithal, and no one around her did either. That makes her a plain Jane, no different than the others in my book.


Mike

[Wickerman]

The going rate for an attractive, younger woman like Mary Kelly was sixpence, which is roughly equivalent in real terms to what a street prostitute would earn today.

Are you saying that Mary's request to Hutchinson for 6d was actually a proposition?

The problem I see with that is Hutchinson, Abberline, and even the press, would have been well acquainted with what street prostitutes of the time charged for their services. So, it is unlikely to me that Hutchinson would have told the police, or the reporter, that Kelly propositioned him by asking for the usual 6d, and not expect Abberline, or the press reporter to know exactly what the implication was.

I have not managed to find a contemporary source that lists any true prices charged by street prostitutes, so can't say for sure.

[markmorey5]

Are you saying that Mary's request to Hutchinson for 6d was actually a proposition?

The problem I see with that is Hutchinson, Abberline, and even the press, would have been well acquainted with what street prostitutes of the time charged for their services. So, it is unlikely to me that Hutchinson would have told the police, or the reporter, that Kelly propositioned him by asking for the usual 6d, and not expect Abberline, or the press reporter to know exactly what the implication was.

I have not managed to find a contemporary source that lists any true prices charged by street prostitutes, so can't say for sure.

When I wrote my novel I initially found it hard to find out how much street workers charged, but I eventually found a good source and it was thruppence for an older woman to sixpence for a younger woman, and I also found some brothel prices. I use these prices in my book, including how much it cost to have sex with a 13 year old virgin in a brothel, and the sliding scale of prices up to age 16 where they were charged at adult rates. And now you know why today's age of consent today is 16.

The research for my two Victorian-era novels took as much time as the writing. I read a relatively recent, best-selling novel set in the same era, and I wanted to avoid the simple errors of fact that kept irritating me.

Kelly propositioned Hutchinson for sex for sixpence but he couldn't bring himself to say she asked him to pay to have sex with her, of course. The proposition for sex which he couldn't afford might have caused him to wait outside Millers Court and fantasise about what he was missing out on.

[miss marple]

What is interesting about Mary's story as told to Joe,[ and that is all we have]
is the ordinariness of it. There is no real attempt at self mythologising. The story could apply to hundreds of girls in Victorian England. The descent into prostitution due to destitution and the death of a loved one.
The death by pit explosion of her 'husband' may have been an attempt to gain sympathy or equally could have been true. it is not unusual in the context of her story.
In her short life she was known as a prostitute, she lived off men. She never had a job. She probably did work in a west End brothel, and was taken to a French brothel [ they were rigid and restrictive] not the sort of life she wanted. She was more likely to be a dress lodger. This is a prostitute who is given expensive clothes in return for regular payments, once she left the brothel, the dresses would be kept. This part of her life seems to be confirmed by Mrs Buki who went with her to Knightsbridge to' reclaim' her expensive dresses. Knightsbridge, an upper class area of South West London, had a soldiers barricks, and at least one brothel in Hill St.

Had she been an artist's model or hung out with artists, I am sure she would have mentioned to someone, as part of the self mythologising process, but her back story is quite mundane. The only attempt at glamour is mentioning she had a' relative on the stage'

I was criticised for presuming Mrs 'Carthy was irish, Well she was. There was no Mrs Carthy,it is a newspaper mistake. It is presumed to be Mrs Mary McCarthy of Breezers Hill [ 1891 census, husband John[ no the same one. The area around Breezers Hill near the docks was full of Irish [including the Barnett family]
The blarney that Mrs McCarthy comes out with sounds exactly like the kind of mythologising I have heard in Ireland when a tale is told.

There were many McCarthys and Kellys in London who may or may not have known each other. In an area so full of Irish it would have been difficult to lie about your background. McCarthy of Dorset St was an astute businessman, but he knew the ways of the East End and that many of his tenants would get behind with the rent. It was usual to pay a bit on account and owe the rest. No maintenence was done on the properties, so it was clear profit. Mary was young and attractive, so had a good chance of making the money after Joe left. McCarthy would have been aware of her profession.

Mary's life was short and sordid with a dreadful ending. At least one man loved her' Joe' but without money the relationship was doomed.
Mary was a prostitute out of choice. There would have been other options open to her, factory work, barmaid, domestic service, even having a go on the Halls if her voice was good enough, but no, she liked a drink and freedom to please herself.
I dont consider her 'romantic' just desperately sad.


Miss Marple

[MayBea]

Natasha,

I would never disuade you or anyone else from having a working theory about Mary Kelly, romantic or not. We all have to work with a theory that is interesting enough for us to keep us researching her.

It can't hurt us either way because, in the end, you have to come up with a candidate who disappears at the right time and bring her to the table as a potential piece of the puzzle and see if she fits.

As for the report of her being an artist, I think anything's possible. However, it could be that Mrs. Carthy's description should be taken in context of the phrase "scholar and artist", which has a different meaning than artist by itself, which could apply to Kelly.

Anyone agree that "scholar and artist" has a different implication?

[Prosector]

I thought that the reporter quoted Mrs McCarthy as saying that she was 'a scholar and no mean artist' which is slightly different. As to her name, the appellation Kelly was almost synonymous with prostitute in late 19th century London just as Molly or Moll had been a century before. Catherine Eddowes used it when she was arrested. The founder of the famous Parisian brothel, le Chabanais, used by the Prince of Wales was a Madame Kelly (almost certainly not her real name). If a girl wanted to hide herself in the East End it would have been the most obvious of names to use.
Prosector

[MayBea]

The exact quote is "excellent scholar and artist of no mean degree". I think "scholar and artist" might be akin to "gentleman and scholar" but applicable to females.
http://www.ask.com/question/origin-o...and-gentleman#

As for the name Kelly, 1.2% of the Irish population in Ireland have that name according to estimates. Mary's chances of being a Kelly would increase if she's from a county where Kellys are prevalent.

I haven't found or calculated the percentage for England but wouldn't it be higher still? The bigger clans would be more likely to produce immigrants and they would attract more members once they are settled in the new country.