Finding more out about MJK

[GUT]

G'day Paddy

I was wondering what proof one has to give to receive a death certificate?
On free BMD there appears to be two entrants for her death. Is this legal I wonder? I did find an adopted person recently in 1940s had two birth certificates in both birth and adopted name.

Deaths Dec 1888
Davies Marie Jeanette 25 Whitechapel 1c 211 -
KELLY Marie Jeanette 25 Whitechapel 1c 211

I do know someone on the boards did pick this up recently, but I cant find the post to credit them.....

Pat......

I've certainly come across this before, in 1860's you had to provide no proof at all, I can't find anything 1bou '88 yet.

[Rya]

Perhaps this has already been mentioned on the boards here previously; if so, forgive the redundancy. But a common form of the name Mary in Irish is Maire. So I suppose that if Barnett had seen letters Mary had received from her mother or brother which used that derivation, he might have mistaken it for Marie. Which I suppose means that Mary's middle name was not Jeanette but some other gaelic name he mistook for Jeanette. I have no idea what that would be; Jane or Jean in Irish is, of course, Sinead. Mary was supposedly born in the west of Ireland, which makes it somewhat more likely that she was raised in a family that spoke or used Irish names and language.

I don't know what the Welsh equivalent of these names are, but as Mary was presumably raised in Wales, it would be useful to know Welsh derivations as well.

It is also woth pointing out, which no one ever seems to do, that the business referring to "the man from France" was not necessarily a lover. It is equally likely that, if Mary was involved with local charitable organizations which tried to place young girls in homes and/or employment, that she may have been placed in service to some English family that lived abroad. It was common to place such girls in such ways, as to avoid the clutches of the human traffickers, former employers, and "families," who would go to some lengths to retrieve them and put them back to work in the brothels. Since Mary's time in London coincides with a great reform in prostitution laws and organized efforts to reduce such human trafficking (which was particularly problematic with immigrant women), I would not be surprised if Mary was a reclamation project of the local reformers, perhaps repeatedly so. There is some reference to her knowledge of such groups in statements of people who claimed to know her.

[Debra A]

I was wondering what proof one has to give to receive a death certificate?
On free BMD there appears to be two entrants for her death. Is this legal I wonder? I did find an adopted person recently in 1940s had two birth certificates in both birth and adopted name.

Deaths Dec 1888
Davies Marie Jeanette 25 Whitechapel 1c 211 -
KELLY Marie Jeanette 25 Whitechapel 1c 211

I do know someone on the boards did pick this up recently, but I cant find the post to credit them.....

Pat......

Hi Pat, yes this is legal. Both surnames appear in the index because both surnames appear on the actual death certificate- 'Marie Jeanette Kelly otherwise Davies.'
I believe the details on the death certificate (age, name etc. )would have been taken directly from the sworn testimony of Barnett, given at the inquest, which established MJK's identity.

[Dave O]

Hi Pat, yes this is legal. Both surnames appear in the index because both surnames appear on the actual death certificate- 'Marie Jeanette Kelly otherwise Davies.'
I believe the details on the death certificate (age, name etc. )would have been taken directly from the sworn testimony of Barnett, given at the inquest, which established MJK's identity.

Hi Paddy and Debra,

I didn't realize she appeared twice. Yes, from Barnett to the coroner's inquisition. From the inquisition, the coroner prepared a certification of the jury's findings for the registrar in Spitalfields, which was a sub-district of Whitechapel. The death certificate was issued with the coroner noted as the source of information. The clerical error in Kelly's address ("1 Millers Court" instead of 13) that was in the coroner's inquisition appeared in the death certificate, too.

Best,
Dave

[GUT]

G'day Debra

Hi Pat, yes this is legal. Both surnames appear in the index because both surnames appear on the actual death certificate- 'Marie Jeanette Kelly otherwise Davies.'
I believe the details on the death certificate (age, name etc. )would have been taken directly from the sworn testimony of Barnett, given at the inquest, which established MJK's identity.

Debra as an aside can you give me any idea why someone would appear 2 or even 3 times with no apparent differences? In one case with all details identical but two different reference numbers, t really has be puzzled?

Thanks

[Debra A]

Hi Paddy and Debra,

I didn't realize she appeared twice. Yes, from Barnett to the coroner's inquisition. From the inquisition, the coroner prepared a certification of the jury's findings for the registrar in Spitalfields, which was a sub-district of Whitechapel. The death certificate was issued with the coroner noted as the source of information. The clerical error in Kelly's address ("1 Millers Court" instead of 13) that was in the coroner's inquisition appeared in the death certificate, too.

Best,
Dave

Thanks for clarifying, Dave. I always welcome your input into these questions-I know you know your stuff.

[Debra A]

Debra as an aside can you give me any idea why someone would appear 2 or even 3 times with no apparent differences? In one case with all details identical but two different reference numbers, t really has be puzzled?

Thanks

Was it for a death record, GUT?
I know a couple could marry in two different places on the same day and both events would then appear in the registers.
I seem to recall that Elizabeth Jackson may have had two death records for two different districts in Jun 1889. I haven't ordered the certificates to check but I think it might be because inquests were opened in two different districts where remains were found. Not sure though.

[GUT]

G'day Deb

Was it for a death record, GUT?
I know a couple could marry in two different places on the same day and both events would then appear in the registers.
I seem to recall that Elizabeth Jackson may have had two death records for two different districts in Jun 1889. I haven't ordered the certificates to check but I think it might be because inquests were opened in two different districts where remains were found. Not sure though.

Sorry should have added not ripper related and has occurred in both birth and death records, in the death record same spouse children parents date of birth and death and cause of death, just three different registration numbers, do I just have a clerk without enough work who entered the one death three times, very similar with the birth entry.

[Debra A]

Sorry should have added not ripper related and has occurred in both birth and death records, in the death record same spouse children parents date of birth and death and cause of death, just three different registration numbers, do I just have a clerk without enough work who entered the one death three times, very similar with the birth entry.

Thanks, GUT. I'd love the details (by Pm maybe?) as it's something I've not come across before and unusual things always interest me.

[GUT]

G'day Deb

I'll get the boss lady to find them again and get thm to you.

I did wonder if maybe she die n one district, lived in another and was buried in a third and if that would explain it.

[Debra A]

I'll get the boss lady to find them again and get thm to you.

I did wonder if maybe she die n one district, lived in another and was buried in a third and if that would explain it.

Thanks GUT.

[Bridewell]

Hi everyone

It occurred to me whilst reading a press report on here (the Irish papers) that maybe there may have been a mix up with Mary Kellys name. Also credit to Mr B, for mentioning this before regarding an Emma Davis. What if her maiden name was actually Davies and her married name Kelly (she might not have actually married but still used the last name Kelly).
I decided to use what little information we know about Kelly, and found the following information interesting.

Since she said she 'married and lost her husband in an explosion' I started researching mine explosions and find www.scottishmining.co.uk so I checked the fatalities list and found this entry:

Name: James Kelly
Age: N/A
Occupation: Collier
Name of colliery: Kinneil
Where Situated: Bo'ness, Linlithgow
Date Of Death:9 July 1883
Category:Explosion of fire damp
Cause: He went into a heading by mistake while the fireman was away for materials to take out the gas

Bo'ness Linlithgow is only 14 miles from Limerigg which may have been what Barnett heard as Limerick. Limerigg would also be a more logical fit for a brother in the Scots Guards. (I think I've been here before though!)

[Cogidubnus]

She'd have been a Stenhousemuir fan (some poor soul has to be)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Natasha View Post
Hi everyone

It occurred to me whilst reading a press report on here (the Irish papers) that maybe there may have been a mix up with Mary Kellys name. Also credit to Mr B, for mentioning this before regarding an Emma Davis. What if her maiden name was actually Davies and her married name Kelly (she might not have actually married but still used the last name Kelly).
I decided to use what little information we know about Kelly, and found the following information interesting.

Since she said she 'married and lost her husband in an explosion' I started researching mine explosions and find www.scottishmining.co.uk so I checked the fatalities list and found this entry:

Name: James Kelly
Age: N/A
Occupation: Collier
Name of colliery: Kinneil
Where Situated: Bo'ness, Linlithgow
Date Of Death:9 July 1883
Category:Explosion of fire damp
Cause: He went into a heading by mistake while the fireman was away for materials to take out the gas

Bo'ness Linlithgow is only 14 miles from Limerigg which may have been what Barnett heard as Limerick. Limerigg would also be a more logical fit for a brother in the Scots Guards. (I think I've been here before though!)

I think this is interesting...if an unfortunate with pretensions towards respectability HAD been previously married, it might make a good deal of sense to use her widowed name, rather than revert to her maiden name...particularly if it was a "respectable death" which might elicit some sympathy...

Colin's comment re Bo'ness is also interesting...

What if the place name (perhaps misheard) relating to the family's living place was perhaps nearby Carron where a large Ironworks had been founded in 1759?

Just another twopenn'orth

Dave

[Natasha]

Hi Everyone

What if MJK was actually born in France, her family may have known McCarthy’s family. I found this at ancestry in the French collections:

Jeanne Gabrielle Kelly
Mother: Marie Gabrielle Petit
Father: Jean Kelly

I haven’t got a subscription so can not view all the info on this entry

I found it interesting because Barnett put on MJK’s death certificate Marie Jeanette Kelly. I think its worth investigating weather Kelly was actually born in France.

Hi all

For anyone who is interested the above was born in 1856, that would make this Jeanne 32. I think it is quite possible that MJK may have been older then 25. I can not find any trace of Jeanne after this.

What do you lot think about this?

[Debra A]

Hi all

For anyone who is interested the above was born in 1856, that would make this Jeanne 32. I think it is quite possible that MJK may have been older then 25. I can not find any trace of Jeanne after this.

What do you lot think about this?

Hi Natasha
Looking at the full Ancestry entry, Jeanne Gabrielle's full name should be Jeanne Gabrielle Kelly Snowden. The surname Snowden doesn't appear in the index for some reason.

Just to double check I looked for her parents marriage and I think this is it:

Name: Marie Gabrielle Julie Petit
Marriage Date: 24 mai 1841 (24 May 1841)
Father's Name: j Baptiste vincent Petit
Mother's name: Antoinette Julie Defer
Spouse's Name: Jean kelley Snowden

I think there was another daughter named Marie Julie Snowden.