Finding more out about MJK

[RockySullivan]

Just checked the details;
Police discovered the drawers belonged to Lucy Elizabeth Fisher, a domestic servant living in Kirkley, Lowestoft. Her father and mother (who were now living near Newcastle) both confirmed the underwear was stenciled with Lucy's name and had been sold for rags about the time Faircloth said he bought them in a lodging house.
Lucy appears on the 1891 census at Kirkley, Lowestoft as a domestic servant aged 20 and her mother and father and siblings appear in Byker, Newcastle, as the newspapers reported.

Thanks deb I thoroughly enjoy reading your post especially in the torso sub forum !
The thing about the LE Fisher underwear....why go thru all the trouble of dismembering and spreading remains if he's going to leave shorts with a name on them that can be traced to the victim? Doesn't make sense

[Debra A]

Thanks deb I thoroughly enjoy reading your post especially in the torso sub forum !
The thing about the LE Fisher underwear....why go thru all the trouble of dismembering and spreading remains if he's going to leave shorts with a name on them that can be traced to the victim? Doesn't make sense

Thanks Rocky.

I agree, it is odd that someone would wrap Elizabeth's body parts up in her own clothing for disposal. All Elizabeth's clothing would have been identifiable to some extent but the underwear with the name in (and he couldn't have failed to see that surely?) was as good as a note to say who this was. Unless the killer knew that wasn't Elizabeth's real name?

[RockySullivan]

Thanks Rocky.

I agree, it is odd that someone would wrap Elizabeth's body parts up in her own clothing for disposal. All Elizabeth's clothing would have been identifiable to some extent but the underwear with the name in (and he couldn't have failed to see that surely?) was as good as a note to say who this was. Unless the killer knew that wasn't Elizabeth's real name?

Thats very likely I think Debra that Torso did know her name wasnt LE Fisher. Perhaps it was a clue to his connection to Liz?

[Debra A]

Thats very likely I think Debra that Torso did know her name wasnt LE Fisher. Perhaps it was a clue to his connection to Liz?

Perhaps, Rocky.
Faircloth was certainly an odd character that would be top of my list-but cleared by police.

[MayBea]

Is is possible that the unsourced "Lizzie Fisher" who supposedly "did have a 12year old and did live on the second floor", and was used to explain Mary Kelly being identified as "Lizzie Fisher/Fraser", is really Elizabeth Prater who had a 4 year old and lived on the second floor above Kelly?

She also had a son in 1868. Someone looking for a Fisher on the second floor might read her name on the census as Fisher instead of Prater.

She could still be the reason for the misidentification. Prater could sound a lot like Fraser.

[Natasha]

Hi All

As everyone has done their very best to trace kelly's husband, and we have approached it in terms of her husband being Welsh. I thought I would approach this from another angle.

We have all looked into the history of miners, and explosions and even tried to who Kelly's husband was. I don't think anyone has mentioned the following. Davis/Davies is actually a traditional hebrew name, that many jews have either adopted or held on to. I am in the process of checking Jewish burials in Wales.

Now my theory is quite obvious that perhaps her husband was of Jewish descent. There were quite a number of Jewish people who were Jewish Coal Miners in Wales also.

If Kelly married a Jew, this may well be the reason for her being shunned by her family. I don't think the parents of Davis would have been too pleased either, if indeed they were Jewish.

I guess all this would raise another question, if they married, who would have presided the wedding, unless they didn't officially marry.

Could it be possible that Kelly converted to Judaism, in order to marry Davis, if he was Jewish?

[Natasha]

Hi All

I think the following may be of use, an article I found in a Welsh newspaper dated the 9th May 1885:

CARDIFF. SATURDAY. (Before Alderman LEWIS and Dr. TAYLOR.) BREAKING WINDOWS.—Mary Ann Davies, aged 20, was charged with being a disorderly prostitute, causing an obstruction in Buta-street, and with wilfully breaking windows value £9, at the Custom House Hotel, the property of H. Daven- port, on the 1st inst. Defendant, who had been ordered out of the public-house mentioned, took off her boot and smashed three panes of glass. In order that the amount of damage might be ascertained the prisoner was remanded till Mon- day.

Who said she arrived in London in 1884? Can someone tell me I can't seem to find out for sure weather she was in London at that time. All that is said is that maybe she arrived in 1884.

What's interesting about this article:

1: Mary Ann Davies roughly fits the age of Kelly
2: Kelly said she worked as a prostitute in Cardiff
3: Although not a strong enough argument I thought it funny in a way that the if this was Kelly, she had a habit of breaking windows

I know the there was inquiries made in Cardiff as to Kelly, and that they said there was no records, but maybe because of her name.
What do you lot think, is it possible that this could be Kelly?

[Amanda]

Unlikely...

Hi Natasha,

I'd love to believe you'd found MJK but given the fact that both 'Mary' and 'Davies' were, and still are,incredibly common names in Wales, I don't think it's time to celebrate just yet.
Also, why would she use the name 'Mary Ann' and not 'Mary Jane'?
You'd think that if someone was going to use a different name, it would be their first name that they changed.

I'm still digging in to the Mary Jane Kelly/Davies's in Wales and have found so many possible matches it's like looking for a grain of sand in a bucket of soot.

Keep up the good work and hopefully one of us will be able to come up with something concrete.
Amanda

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha,

I'd love to believe you'd found MJK but given the fact that both 'Mary' and 'Davies' were, and still are,incredibly common names in Wales, I don't think it's time to celebrate just yet.
Also, why would she use the name 'Mary Ann' and not 'Mary Jane'?
You'd think that if someone was going to use a different name, it would be their first name that they changed.

I'm still digging in to the Mary Jane Kelly/Davies's in Wales and have found so many possible matches it's like looking for a grain of sand in a bucket of soot.

Keep up the good work and hopefully one of us will be able to come up with something concrete.
Amanda

Hi Amanda

Thanks

[MayBea]

Who said she arrived in London in 1884? Can someone tell me I can't seem to find out for sure weather she was in London at that time. All that is said is that maybe she arrived in 1884.

We don't know definitely when she arrived but witnesses put her there in 1886.

According to the timeline, between 1884 and 1886 she moved four or five times, from the West End to Stepney to Buki's... to McCarthy's. I don't think you can put all that activity in one year alone.

I would definitely put her in London in 1884 or 1885 at least.

http://www.casebook.org/timeline.kelly.html

[Natasha]

We don't know definitely when she arrived but witnesses put her there in 1886.

According to the timeline, between 1884 and 1886 she moved four or five times, from the West End to Stepney to Buki's... to McCarthy's. I don't think you can put all that activity in one year alone.

I would definitely put her in London in 1884 or 1885 at least.

http://www.casebook.org/timeline.kelly.html

Thanks MayBea

I have read the timeline.

I just wanted to make sure there wasn't any info in regards to the date of her arrival elsewhere on here that I hadn't seen, before making any assumptions.

[Natasha]

Hi All,

I know this may seem far fetched, but could Kelly have a connection to Lillie Langtry (real name Emilie Charlotte Le Breton)?

Lillie was born in Jersey in 1853. In 1874 she married an Irish land owner, Edward Langtry. They moved to London and were living in Norfolk Street London off Park Lane.
Kelly's father was Irish perhaps Kelly was related to this Irish landowner Edward Langtry. The letter sent to the Yarmouth police could have a connection with Norfolk Street.

She was well known as being an actress and the mistress of the Prince of Wales.
Kelly reckoned she had a famous relative.

We all know about the about the royal conspiracy theories and I'm not saying that there is any connection between them and the ripper, but I thought it worth adding for the interests of those who do.

Lillie's mother was called Emilie Davis (née Martin).
Davis, Kelly's name.

She had a daughter called Jeanne Marie in 1881.
Obviously this daughter wasn't Kelly, but the name Kelly used was similar.

[Rosella]

Poor old Edward led a rather sad life. He loved yachting, had to give that up due to the agricultural depression in Ireland affecting his income. His wife's determination to make a mark in London Society and her constant infidelities wouldn't have helped.

He died insane in Chester asylum in 1897, after he had struck his head in an accident on a ferry crossing from Ireland. For several years before that he'd been living on a £35 a week allowance from his estranged wife. I really can't see that there would be any connection between MJK and Lillie/Edward.

Lillie probably named her child Jeanne Marie because her father's family were an old Jersey family, (French-English descent.) Jeanne Marie's father may have been Prince Louis of Battenburg, Prince Philip's grandfather.

[Natasha]

Poor old Edward led a rather sad life. He loved yachting, had to give that up due to the agricultural depression in Ireland affecting his income. His wife's determination to make a mark in London Society and her constant infidelities wouldn't have helped.

He died insane in Chester asylum in 1897, after he had struck his head in an accident on a ferry crossing from Ireland. For several years before that he'd been living on a £35 a week allowance from his estranged wife. I really can't see that there would be any connection between MJK and Lillie/Edward.

Lillie probably named her child Jeanne Marie because her father's family were an old Jersey family, (French-English descent.) Jeanne Marie's father may have been Prince Louis of Battenburg, Prince Philip's grandfather.

Hi Rosella,

Thanks for the info very insightful. Interesting about his mental health.

Yeah the name is a popular French name. I have tried to look into Kelly possibly using the name Jeanne before.

Jersey being French owned makes me wonder weather Kelly had been there.

Did Kelly really go to France or did she actually go to Jersey? There is a place in St Helier Jersey called Paris Lane. I'm not sure weather it was called that back then, but it's worth mentioning.

[miss marple]

Natasha,

Mary Kelly was a completely different social class to Lillie Langry. The Kellys were just one of the poor many thousands of irish families who emigrated either to Wales England or America after the famine.
Lizzie Albrook made the comment that' Mary had sad she had a relative on the stage in London'
There were thousands of music hall performers in England travelling around the country. She may have had a relative who was one of those.

Miss Marple