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  • MJK3 image origin speculation

    As you know, MJK3, the second existent image of Mary Jane Kelly’s murder scene, lacks any provenance. It was anonymously mailed to Scotland Yard in 1888.

    There are many excellent threads here in the forums analyzing the differences between the images. These differences are confounding and lead most to conclude one of two origins of MJK3:

    First, that a photographer arrived earlier at the scene than the taker of MJK1 and at least one of the two photographers moved the bed and tables to assist in capturing their image.

    Or second, that MJK3 should be assumed to be a forgery.

    I see the wisdom in both positions as first, London 1888 was not CSI: Miami and second, when a mysterious photograph of a famous crime scene appears without warning on the centennial anniversary, a healthy dose of skepticism is, well, healthy.

    For reference, here are some of the comparison threads that I am discussing:







    And of course, Simon Wood’s analysis: Room 13 Millers Court



    Before I start, I think it’s wise to defer to the more thorough understanding of some of this forum’s “greats,” who have been studying this topic far longer than I have.

    With all of the audacity of a neophyte, I would like to ask: is it possible that the killer took the MJK3 photograph?

    Fair warning, I, like most of us in this forum, have my own pet suspect. Before I discuss why I think he could have been the photographer, I would like your opinions on whether you think that MJK3, the darker image with a different layout and even perhaps a knife on the table could have plausibly been captured by the murderer himself?

    Magnesium flash powder was available in the 1880’s but usually caused an audible bang and left dusty residue. So while it’s technically possible that a flash was used in the darkened room, it would have been quite dangerous to do so. And the camera equipment would have been a large object to smuggle in and out of the room.

    In the event that there was a photograph taken by the killer, he would have had to stand next to the larger, unbroken window. If you look at Simon Wood’s diagram 4, holding a flash aloft from that vantage point while holding the camera trigger in the other hand would keep the photographer from being in shot, capture the image as pictured, and explain the singular light source.

    I am not experienced enough to know if the glowing vertical line could be falling magnesium, but I would like to hear from someone who does know more about period photography on that topic.

    What odds would you lay for the three options: both pics were taken by police who moved tables / MJK3 is a forgery / MJK3 was taken by the killer?


  • #2
    So you are proposing that JtR carried a camera, and a bag of flash powder, as he went out on the prowl?

    - Jeff

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
      So you are proposing that JtR carried a camera, and a bag of flash powder, as he went out on the prowl?

      - Jeff
      Not for any of the other murders attributed to him, no. I suppose this proposal rests on an unstated given: that the Mary Jane Kelly murder was quite different from the other four canonical murders.

      In order to bring a camera along, we'd need to presume that killer had, at least, selected his target and the scene of the crime in advance.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by SchirrGenius View Post

        Not for any of the other murders attributed to him, no. I suppose this proposal rests on an unstated given: that the Mary Jane Kelly murder was quite different from the other four canonical murders.

        In order to bring a camera along, we'd need to presume that killer had, at least, selected his target and the scene of the crime in advance.
        If JtR had taken the photo, how do we even know about it? It's discovery would trace back to JtR, etc.

        - Jeff

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi SchirrGenius,

          Looking from the proposed camera angle of MJK3, the hand in the photo should be her left hand. It looks very much to me to be a right hand. What am I overlooking?

          Cheers, George​
          Opposing opinions doesn't mean opposing sides, in my view, it means attacking the problem from both ends. - Wickerman​

          ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by SchirrGenius View Post

            What odds would you lay for the three options: both pics were taken by police who moved tables / MJK3 is a forgery / MJK3 was taken by the killer?

            Hi SchirrGenius

            1. 100% (not necessarily moved tables, but definitely taken by the police)

            2. 0%

            3. -100.000.000 % (there’s no infinity sign on my phone keyboard, or I’d have used that)

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi SchirrGenius,

              I used Photoshop to apply a little sharpening and some level adjustments for the lighting and came up with this:

              Click image for larger version

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              I then zoomed in to obtain this close-up:

              Click image for larger version

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              If the high point in MJK3 is the right knee, what are we looking at here? Is it just me, or is there some script at the bottom centre of the photo?

              Another zoom-in:

              Click image for larger version

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              The image on the left looks to me to be checked fabric and perhaps a feather. On the right there appears to be some script.

              I'll be interested to see what others think of these photos, but at this stage I incline to the view that MJK3 is a fake.

              Cheers, George
              Opposing opinions doesn't mean opposing sides, in my view, it means attacking the problem from both ends. - Wickerman​

              ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                If the high point in MJK3 is the right knee, what are we looking at here?
                I’m not sure what you mean by ‘high point’

                but what you’re looking at in the closeup is her right shin. Notice the straight dark line across the top of her shin/calf:
                Click image for larger version

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                Click image for larger version

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kattrup View Post

                  I’m not sure what you mean by ‘high point’
                  Hi Kattrup,

                  In MJK1 the right knee is higher than the left, but if it is the right knee that is shown in MJK3, as you suggest, why is the left knee higher?

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Having now read the linked threads I find that all my questions have been addressed before in those threads:

                  What I thought looked like checked fabric is a bolster. Richardh has an excellent animation showing how a left hand can look like a right hand, although I'm not entirely convinced. The arrowed high point in the photo above is nominated a her inner thigh - I'm not yet convinced about that.

                  At this stage I'm still inclined to think that MJK3 is a forgery.

                  Cheers, George
                  Opposing opinions doesn't mean opposing sides, in my view, it means attacking the problem from both ends. - Wickerman​

                  ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I know it's just a sketch but which picture does this attempt to depict?

                    Click image for larger version

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                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Geddy2112 View Post
                      I know it's just a sketch but which picture does this attempt to depict?

                      Click image for larger version

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                      I always wonder where the camera for MK3 would have been placed? It always looks like the bed was pushed up against the wall, so where/how was it positioned? I don't believe the picture is a fake but this has always perplexed me? richardh can any of the work creating 3d models of No. 13 shed any light on this?
                      Best wishes,

                      Tristan

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Geddy2112 View Post
                        I know it's just a sketch but which picture does this attempt to depict?
                        The sketch is a less detailed copy of another sketch, and somewhere along the process, this version got mirror-imaged, before the lettering was added.

                        So the answer is: the sketch depicts taking the photo MJK1. The drawing has just been reversed.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Losmandris View Post


                          I always wonder where the camera for MK3 would have been placed? It always looks like the bed was pushed up against the wall, so where/how was it positioned? I don't believe the picture is a fake but this has always perplexed me? richardh can any of the work creating 3d models of No. 13 shed any light on this?
                          There's these links to various things I've created to try to bring the room and its content to (virtual) reality.


                          Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


                          Another video walk-thru of Number 13 Miller's Court from my Jack the Ripper - JtR3D project. This one is silent and features camera positions for MJK2 & MKJ3...



                          Not sure if any of those will help.
                          JtRmap.com<< JtR Interactive Map
                          JtRmap FORM << Use this form to make suggestions for map annotations
                          ---------------------------------------------------
                          JtR3d.com << JtR 3D & #VR Website
                          ---------------------------------------------------

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
                            Hi SchirrGenius,

                            Looking from the proposed camera angle of MJK3, the hand in the photo should be her left hand. It looks very much to me to be a right hand. What am I overlooking?

                            Cheers, George​
                            JtRmap.com<< JtR Interactive Map
                            JtRmap FORM << Use this form to make suggestions for map annotations
                            ---------------------------------------------------
                            JtR3d.com << JtR 3D & #VR Website
                            ---------------------------------------------------

                            Comment

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