The missing key?

[PC Fitzroy-Toye]

Joe's story makes no sense, and how could any DC take that and not test if it could be done? and not see a lie and then put him in a room with some skull crackers and sweat him? or did they have someone and there just going through the motions with Joe?

[Wickerman]

Amanda
Have a look at my 3D models of Miller's court / No.13. You will see the lower window glass of the small window is broken. I've also posted some CGI images to demonstrate how easy it would have been to reach through the broken glass and unlock the door. In the 3D CGI's you can see that it's not really a stretch to reach the lock from outside the window.

Here's a picture and there are loads more online somewhere:
EDIT: Here's a link to more images:
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7233&page=2

Richard.
I believe the pane furthest away from the corner was the one broken, you have the arm through the nearest pane.

[Wickerman]

Hello Harry D,

It seems that some people are determined to stick to one idea, and don't like it to be shifted. I believe you are quite right about Barnett and the whole idea of the window is nonsense. Can you see a broken pane at the bottom of the window? I can't.

Amanda.
I think you are missing the point.

It isn't what we can or cannot see in a photo that is older than the both of us put together, we are lucky it survived at all.

Two witnesses identified the broken pane, Bowyer & Dr. Phillips.

Two panes were broken, they were both in the smaller window, the window nearest the downspout on the corner.

Bowyer identified the lower pane furthest from the corner as the one he looked through. The other broken pane was one of the upper two, which one we do not know.

[Natasha]

Hi All

This is just a theory................

13 Millers Court was described as small. I think there is an assumption that both windows were part of Kelly's room. Could it be possible that the bigger window of the two was not in Kelly's room?

Everyone has argued that the pic was taken outside because of the lack of space. Now looking at the angle of the picture in which it was taken, could it be possible that there was a window next to the door facing the bed?

Sounds nuts but thought I would throw another possibility out there. The places where the windows are situated look weird anyway.

[PC Fitzroy-Toye]

Amanda.
I think you are missing the point.

It isn't what we can or cannot see in a photo that is older than the both of us put together, we are lucky it survived at all.

Two witnesses identified the broken pane, Bowyer & Dr. Phillips.

Two panes were broken, they were both in the smaller window, the window nearest the downspout on the corner.

Bowyer identified the lower pane furthest from the corner as the one he looked through. The other broken pane was one of the upper two, which one we do not know.

Is the photo then after a repair? or is it the photo's age that dose not let us see the other brake?
Also just so I get this right the lower pain was damaged due to a fight? the reason I ask is I have lived in houses with these windows and as long as you can get to the sash lock which you could do by the upper pain then the lower half should slid up.

[GUT]

Hi All

This is just a theory................

13 Millers Court was described as small. I think there is an assumption that both windows were part of Kelly's room. Could it be possible that the bigger window of the two was not in Kelly's room?

Everyone has argued that the pic was taken outside because of the lack of space. Now looking at the angle of the picture in which it was taken, could it be possible that there was a window next to the door facing the bed?

Sounds nuts but thought I would throw another possibility out there. The places where the windows are situated look weird anyway.

G'day Natasha

Considering the room is either 12x12 or 12x10 [depending on the source] I think the answer has to be a resounding NO.

I don't think that "everyone" has argued that as the reason for taking the picture from outside, indeed in a room 12X10 it would be have been entirely possible to take a photo inside as anyone who knows anything about photography will attest.

And yes there has been a lot of discussion about the placement, and sizes, of the two windows and it is not something you would expect to see in a modern building, personally I think that the answer s likely to have been renovations to the building at some stage, but that is nothing more than my opinion.

[Wickerman]

Here is one of the better resolution pics we have, though I'm not sure it will look 'better' on a forum.



The top right pane (of the smaller window), appears to have a darker middle as if there is a large hole.

Now here is another rendition in the negative which shows that same top right pane with a lighter shade in the middle.
(lighter, because this is a negative)



That said, if you look at both the lower two panes, I think we can see differences in light & dark in both the lower left pane & the lower right pane.
So whether these differences in shade indicate anything certain is hard to say.

[Wickerman]

Also just so I get this right the lower pain was damaged due to a fight? the reason I ask is I have lived in houses with these windows and as long as you can get to the sash lock which you could do by the upper pain then the lower half should slid up.

How well maintained do you think these Millers Court properties were?


[note....in the above pics I focused on the top right pane because the definition between light and dark was the best, but Bowyer did say it was the bottom left pane that he looked through, and we know one of the upper panes was broken.
I'm suggesting it was the top right pane - that is all.]

[Amanda Sumner]

Amanda.
I think you are missing the point.

It isn't what we can or cannot see in a photo that is older than the both of us put together, we are lucky it survived at all.

Two witnesses identified the broken pane, Bowyer & Dr. Phillips.

Two panes were broken, they were both in the smaller window, the window nearest the downspout on the corner.

Bowyer identified the lower pane furthest from the corner as the one he looked through. The other broken pane was one of the upper two, which one we do not know.

Hi Wickerman,
The one photo that we always see of Miller's court, we have all been led to believe, I thought, that it was taken on the day of the murder. In the photo I can only see one pane of glass broken. I put a link on here of another thread that shows this. However, I managed to enhance it more and there does seem to be one pane broken in the top right corner , looking at it from the outside. I agree, that it is possible that another panel was broken at the bottom, but there is no visual evidence of this. For some reason I can't upload my photo onto here to show you. The only reason that it is important is to establish whether Barnett was lying or not. If there was a broken pane as shown in the image above, then why did the police not use this way to get in? Why did not Barnett mention it until he was interviewed?

Amanda

[Natasha]

G'day Natasha

Considering the room is either 12x12 or 12x10 [depending on the source] I think the answer has to be a resounding NO.

I don't think that "everyone" has argued that as the reason for taking the picture from outside, indeed in a room 12X10 it would be have been entirely possible to take a photo inside as anyone who knows anything about photography will attest.

And yes there has been a lot of discussion about the placement, and sizes, of the two windows and it is not something you would expect to see in a modern building, personally I think that the answer s likely to have been renovations to the building at some stage, but that is nothing more than my opinion.

Hi Gut

Sorry about saying everyone, I meant everyone has argued in regards of how the picture was taken weather inside or outside the house.

Just thinking outside the box

[Amanda Sumner]

Sorry Wickerman, I went straight down to bottom of page and missed your photos. I can just see a broken pane on the top as I stated, but I can't see a broken pane at the bottom. How did you put these on? I can't get my image to load. I agree with you, that it is hard to see properly.

[Wickerman]

The only reason that it is important is to establish whether Barnett was lying or not.

I'm not clear, lying about what, - the window being broken?

Bowyer identifies the pane when he pointed to the plan, in court:
"I refer to plan and I mean the farthest pane of the first window the small one."

I agree, it is difficult to see in the pic if either of the lower panes were broken, but we are not contesting Bowyer. One of them was broken.

If there was a broken pane as shown in the image above, then why did the police not use this way to get in? Why did not Barnett mention it until he was interviewed?

Barnett's first opportunity to mention it was when he was interviewed.

If the account in the press is correct, he was interviewed at Millers Court.
That being the case, wouldn't you think it likely that Abberline said "show me how".
Any Detective worth his salt would, after all, Barnett at this point is a suspect, everything he says is being checked.

[Wickerman]

It seems odd that he did not show them how they got in without the key when they were pondering about how to gain entrance.

Amanda.
We do not know what time Barnett arrived at Millers Court, it must have been after 1:30 when the door had already been forced.

[Amanda Sumner]

I'm not clear, lying about what, - the window being broken?

Bowyer identifies the pane when he pointed to the plan, in court:
"I refer to plan and I mean the farthest pane of the first window the small one."

I agree, it is difficult to see in the pic if either of the lower panes were broken, but we are not contesting Bowyer. One of them was broken.




Barnett's first opportunity to mention it was when he was interviewed.

If the account in the press is correct, he was interviewed at Millers Court.
That being the case, wouldn't you think it likely that Abberline said "show me how".
Any Detective worth his salt would, after all, Barnett at this point is a suspect.

Yes, well here Bowyer speaks of one pane broken. he does not say top or bottom.
As far as Barnett lying, I meant about the whole window scenario, opening the door that way, and that the key was missing, which I don't believe it was.
As far as I'm aware Barnett was at the scene at some point so he had plenty of opportunity to tell them about the window, if it was true.
I agree that the police should have looked into it more. They seemed satisfied with his statement however and let him go. i think we will have to agree to disagree with the number of panes broken. If it was only the top one then on balance, Barnett was lying. I, personally, only see one top pane broken and have yet to be convinced otherwise. Sorry.
BTW. You did not mention how to upload a picture on here. Please can you tell me how, I will be very grateful. Nothing happens when I click on 'attachments'

Amanda

[Wickerman]

Amanda.

Dr. Phillips described how he first saw the body.

2 of the pains in the window nearest the passage were broken and finding the door locked I looked through the lower broken pane

So from this we know two panes were broken.
We also know that of the lower two panes, one was broken.
Therefore, we can determine that the other broken pane was one of the top two.

Then, in the testimony of Charles Ledger, we read:
"Bowyer pointed out the window, which was the one nearest the entrance."
We are therefore talking about the smaller four-pane window.

Then Bowyer said:
"I mean the farthest pane of the first window the small one."

So, as we look at the photograph it appears that the bottom left pane of the four-pane window was the one he looked through.
We have no way of determining which one of the upper two panes was also broken.

As for posting the pictures, it may depend on which browser you are using. I post pictures with Photobucket because the other way (using the Casebook feature) appears to cause problems for some posters, so I stick with what works for me, even though it involves a little more work.