The missing key?

[Amanda Sumner]

I could be wrong but I thought that both Joe and Mary let themselves in after the key was lost by reaching through the window and opening the door.

c.d.

Indeed, so Barnett said, but as I said, looking at the photo of Miller's Court, the broken pane is too high to have done so. Barnett lied about that to explain the missing key, but I don't believe it was missing at all.

[GUT]

I'm not sure how many people have ever looked at a lock from the 1880s I grew up in a house built in the 1930's and can assure you that a blind man could probably have opened that lock without a key and over the years have looked at numerous older locks and almost without exception they ddn't take a lot of skill to open without a key.

[GUT]

Indeed, so Barnett said, but as I said, looking at the photo of Miller's Court, the broken pane is too high to have done so. Barnett lied about that to explain the missing key, but I don't believe it was missing at all.

G'day Amanda

But there were two broken panes one upper and one lower.

[markmorey5]

Barnett told them how to get in by reaching through the broken window, and the room was quite small so it should have been possible to reach the spring latch through one of the broken window panes. It doesn't appear as if McCarthy knew of the technique or else he wouldn't have broken down his own door. The women who shared the room with Kelly also knew how to release the lock through the window and probably some of the residents of Millers Court, so there were a number of people who had that knowledge.

The technique of unlokcing the door through the window may or may not have had some bearing on Kelly's murder. Similarly the lost key may have been involved, although it could have been misplaced when Kelly or Barnett were drunk.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
We should not forget that Barnett and Kelly devised a method to get in that room , it was a piece of string, that was apparently attached to the bolt, and it was rumoured that neighbours knew by that string, whether she was in her room or not. and used to enter instead of knocking....
How true, and how it worked no idea,,but if it was attached to the spring lock it might explain how they managed to avoid cutting themselves....
Regards Richard.

[Amanda Sumner]

G'day Amanda

But there were two broken panes one upper and one lower.

Are you sure Gut? In every photo I've seen the hole in the window is in the top pane on the right of the photo. Some pictures are clearer than others but I've not seen any broken glass at the bottom. My apologies if that's the case, then Barnett may not be lying at all. I'll have another study of the photo and come back.

[Amanda Sumner]

Hi.
We should not forget that Barnett and Kelly devised a method to get in that room , it was a piece of string, that was apparently attached to the bolt, and it was rumoured that neighbours knew by that string, whether she was in her room or not. and used to enter instead of knocking....
How true, and how it worked no idea,,but if it was attached to the spring lock it might explain how they managed to avoid cutting themselves....
Regards Richard.

Where did you find that out? First I've heard of any techniques. Barnett stated to the police that they reached in through the window and unfastened the door, no mention of string, I think. Clearly, that would still have been difficult if there was only broken glass in the top pane.

GUT - I have looked again at several photos and there appears to be no broken panes at the bottom.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=612

https://www.google.co.uk/search?safe=off&hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=h p&biw=1366&bih=677&q=13+millers+court&oq=millers+c ourt&gs_l=img.1.3.0l3j0i5j0i24l2j0i10i24j0i24l3.48 69.9788.0.11829.13.13.0.0.0.0.92.423.13.13.0....0. ..1ac.1.51.img..0.13.419.XXs0YzCX4nA&gws_rd=ssl#fa crc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=R5Cl3zeAHeDJLM%253A%3BM1o04dt M-4gmfM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fupload.wikimedia.org%25 2Fwikipedia%252Fcommons%252F6%252F60%252FMiller's_ Court_No.13.JPG%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fen.wikipedia. org%252Fwiki%252FDorset_Street%252C_London%3B306%3 B291

[lynn cates]

recollection

Hello CD.

"I could be wrong but I thought that both Joe and Mary let themselves in after the key was lost by reaching through the window and opening the door."

My recollection, too.

Cheers.
LC

[Amanda Sumner]

Hello CD.

"I could be wrong but I thought that both Joe and Mary let themselves in after the key was lost by reaching through the window and opening the door."

My recollection, too.

Cheers.
LC

Your recollections are correct, but only Barnett said that. Where is the evidence that shows that they did? For three whole hours police hung around that building. Surely one or more of the residents would have shown them the technique to get in using string, or whatever? I can't see a broken bottom pane, but if there was one, and it had been just a simple case of reaching in, wouldn't the police have done so?
I don't think that the key went missing at all before the murder. Most likely Barnett had it and got rid of it quickly after the discovery of the murder.
I would also like to know where the story of the string comes from....

[richardh]

Amanda
Have a look at my 3D models of Miller's court / No.13. You will see the lower window glass of the small window is broken. I've also posted some CGI images to demonstrate how easy it would have been to reach through the broken glass and unlock the door. In the 3D CGI's you can see that it's not really a stretch to reach the lock from outside the window.

Here's a picture and there are loads more online somewhere:
EDIT: Here's a link to more images:
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7233&page=2

[Amanda Sumner]

Hello Richard,

We meet again.

I can see that you have demonstrated, very clearly, just how easy it would have been had there been a bottom pane broken. However, I think only the top pane was broken. I have looked very carefully and I can only see the top right hand side affected. The other panes look intact.
If you are correct then it does not say a lot for the policemen that were standing around for three hours scratching their heads. If a simple task of reaching through a window and lifting a latch befuddled them, then it's no wonder the case remains unsolved!

I have had a good look at the window again,and fiddled with the contrast,etc, to get the best result within my limitations. However can someone please tell me how i can upload my picture on here as there seems no way I can do it! Nothing happens when I click on attachments...

[lynn cates]

key observations

Hello Amanda. Thanks.

"For three whole hours police hung around that building. Surely one or more of the residents would have shown them the technique to get in using string, or whatever?"

Only to have he police observe, "'Ere, now, that's a good bit you know about #13. And where were YOU last night?"

"I can't see a broken bottom pane, but if there was one, and it had been just a simple case of reaching in, wouldn't the police have done so?"

If you are aware of the system, of course. But were they?

It is easy to retrieve the key from under the mat--once you KNOW it's there.

Cheers.
LC

[Amanda Sumner]

[QUOTE=lynn cates;302955]Hello Amanda. Thanks.

"For three whole hours police hung around that building. Surely one or more of the residents would have shown them the technique to get in using string, or whatever?"

Only to have he police observe, "'Ere, now, that's a good bit you know about #13. And where were YOU last night?"

"I can't see a broken bottom pane, but if there was one, and it had been just a simple case of reaching in, wouldn't the police have done so?"

If you are aware of the system, of course. But were they?

It is easy to retrieve the key from under the mat--once you KNOW it's there."


Very true, but if I needed to get into a house in an emergency, under the mat would be the first place I'd look.

The point is, did Barnett do it? Was the key missing? Was Barnett telling the truth? I think not, is the answer to all three.

[Harry D]

Hello Harry. Thanks.

Very well. I see what you mean. But did he not compromise such vindication when he told how to gain entrance?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Not at all. That was all part of the ruse, because if anyone could just put their hand through and lock/unlock the door, the net of suspicion would be widened. Surely it would've been common knowledge how Mary & Joe let themselves into the room? Wasn't Barnett at the scene before they knocked the door down? Why didn't they ask him then instead of later on during his interview? As to Barnett's true motive, I can only speculate. Was he just covering for himself? Or was he afraid of someone else?

[lynn cates]

Por que?

Hello Amanda. Thanks.

In which case, I cannot see why the lie.

Cheers.
LC