The missing key?

[Amanda Sumner]

Thank you, Wickerman,

It does appear to indicate from the statements above that two panes were broken. Odd that it does not show up in the photo.

If, indeed, there was a bottom pane broken then Barnett was probably not lying about the key.

That could suggest then that JtR either let himself in with it, used the window method or MJK let him in. Whichever way, the door locked on the latch as he left in the early hours.

It's ironic really that we have very little visual evidence in this case because they did not take photos of crime scenes, as we do now, and yet there is disagreement on this photo we have. One would have thought there would be no dispute over it because we can see it. Certainly only one pane is visibly broken in that photo. It is the top right one nearest the drainpipe. Looking at the photo, the small window is very low down. Looking at the door and the height of the window, one could argue that it would have been easier to look through that than stooping down and looking through the bottom pane.

What do I know?

Anyway, thank you for your time and I will have a fiddle with photobucket,

Cheers

Amanda

[Harry D]

Didn't Barnett identify MJK through the window? Why was this the case if the door had been smashed down at this point?

[Wickerman]

Thank you, Wickerman,

It does appear to indicate from the statements above that two panes were broken. Odd that it does not show up in the photo.

If, indeed, there was a bottom pane broken then Barnett was probably not lying about the key.

You're quite welcome Amanda.
As regards the key, it was not Barnett who mentioned this at the inquest. The issue was raised by Insp. Abberline. It was he who told the Court that Barnett accessed the lock through the broken window.
Which should suggest that Barnett had told the police this while he was being interviewed in Millers Court, though it does not form part of his police statement.

That could suggest then that JtR either let himself in with it, used the window method or MJK let him in. Whichever way, the door locked on the latch as he left in the early hours.

Quite so, yes.

And as for the photograph, we have to make allowances, this was a old glass-plate photo and the existing print is not in the best condition.

[Wickerman]

Didn't Barnett identify MJK through the window? Why was this the case if the door had been smashed down at this point?

Perhaps we are assuming too much, it does happen

Barnett no doubt first saw the body through the broken window, Mrs Prater says the same. The police were not letting witnesses enter the room, in Barnett's case this could well be because the post-mortem was in progress when he arrived, between 2:00-4:00 pm?

As for Barnett making an official identification, this would not be done from a distance across a dark room and through a broken window.
The identification will be done up close, likely when she was placed in the shell, but at least after the conclusion of the post-mortem.
If you recall, Barnett said the police kept him for four hours (alt. 2 1/2 hrs). Possibly due, in part, to them asking him to wait until the doctors had concluded their work?

What we have are two separate sources.
One tells us Barnett looked at the body through the window, the second tells us he identified the body for police.
We should not assume these separate sources are referring to the same event.

[PC Fitzroy-Toye]

I have an Idear why the photo may not show a lower damaged pane, would it not make sense that if you made regular use of it to open the door they may have remover the last remaining parts of the glass so as not to get scagged by it?
Ho and thanks for your reply wickerman as for up keep of the place I would think next to nothing looking as the place!

Also Im not sure if Barnett did lie about the key he could as easly said MJ had the only one, and the police may have assumed that the killed found and made use of it after his work was done.

[richardh]

Richard.
I believe the pane furthest away from the corner was the one broken, you have the arm through the nearest pane.

Well, In all the contemporary illustrations, and all the discussions I've read on these forums and in all the time I've been producing the 3D renders, that's the first time someone has picked up that I've broken the wrong window.
The thread that image is from is long and many people have commented with suggestions etc. But no-one has said that the window with the arm going through it is the wrong one. Are you certain about this?

[richardh]

Contemporary image showing the pane closest to the door to be broken.



and

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[Wickerman]

Hi Richard.

I entirely agree with what contemporary images show, but they do not agree with the Inquest testimony.

Can you see if you can place the lower broken window next to the corner by using the Inquest testimony alone?

[richardh]

Hi Richard.

I entirely agree with what contemporary images show, but they do not agree with the Inquest testimony.

Can you see if you can place the lower broken window next to the corner by using the Inquest testimony alone?

That why have we all jumped to the obviously erroneous conclusion it was the lower right pane that was used to access the door lock?

Geez! I gotta get the glaziers in now to update all my 3D stuff now!

[Wickerman]

I have an Idear why the photo may not show a lower damaged pane, would it not make sense that if you made regular use of it to open the door they may have remover the last remaining parts of the glass so as not to get scagged by it?

Hi PC.

The jagged glass may have actually been there, did you read this in the Times?
" Accordingly Bowyer .......... passed round the angle of the house and pulled the blind of the window, one of the panes being broken. Then he noticed blood upon the glass,.."

Why would there be blood on the glass?

...

Doctor Phillips tells us two panes in that smaller window frame were broken, and he looked through the lower one.

Bowyer tells us the furthest pane of the lower two was the one he looked through.

Abberline tells us that Barnett claimed to reach through the broken pane to push back the latch.

Was Barnett referring to the upper broken pane, or the lower broken pane?

If he had to reach through the upper pane (at right?), surely he would need to kneel on the window sill to be able to reach through the hole?
What would he hold on to while doing this?

Perhaps the drain-pipe?
Maybe that is why the lower half of the drain-pipe is bent towards the window?

[GUT]

The only thing that has always bothered me about Bowyer's evidence is "furthest from where", furthest from the door, or furthest from the other window. I think the most logical is the one on our left but I am not totally convinced.

Even if it is, as I suspect, the one on the left it isn't a long stretch to the lock, remember that the room in total was only 10-12 ft and it puts the size of the smaller window into context.

[GUT]

When you look at the photo Jon posted in post #67 I tried to work out the width of the window, if that side of the room is 12ft, we know there was a cupboard in the corner and the space between the two windows is 12-18" it appears plus say 6" between the small window and the corner.

That makes the two about 9ft in total, the larger one is about twice the size of the smaller one so the small window is only 2ft 6 to 3 ft wide, thus from the middle of that window it's only about 2 to 2 1/2 ft to the corner, not really a big stretch.

IF, and it is a big If, the sketch of MJK entering the room is anything like accurate it looks [an this is open to debate I admit] that she could easily reach the far pane of the small window from the door, just comparing her arm with the gap she would need to span.

Just my 2p worth.

[Wickerman]

The only thing that has always bothered me about Bowyer's evidence is "furthest from where", furthest from the door, or furthest from the other window. I think the most logical is the one on our left but I am not totally convinced.

Hi GUT.

I'm glad you asked because this same question occurred to me, so I had to make sure we have Bowyers perspective correct.

In his opening statement to the court, and in reference to the broken pane, Bowyer said:

"I went round the corner and there was a broken window in the farthest window."
Official Record.

Then, the next witness Charles Ledger brought a plan of the room into court, and Bowyer corrected his previous statement:

"I refer to plan and I mean the farthest pane of the first window the small one."
Official Record.

So this correction helps us identify which pane he meant. We can now see that when he first said "window", he meant "pane".

Also, we can use his direction of movement as confirmation. Bowyer moved from the door, around the corner, towards the two windows. So once he turned the corner the smallest window is "nearer" to him, and therefore one lower pane is also nearer, and the other is obviously further.
So, in the smallest window, the "farthest pane" is the one on the left (as viewed from outside), not the one next to the drainpipe.

This must confirm that it was the left side pane (as we look at the photo), and not the right side pane which has traditionally been assumed to be the one used for access.

[GUT]

Hi GUT.

I'm glad you asked because this same question occurred to me, so I had to make sure we have Bowyers perspective correct.

In his opening statement to the court, and in reference to the broken pane, Bowyer said:

"I went round the corner and there was a broken window in the farthest window."
Official Record.

Then, the next witness Charles Ledger brought a plan of the room into court, and Bowyer corrected his previous statement:

"I refer to plan and I mean the farthest pane of the first window the small one."
Official Record.

So this correction helps us identify which pane he meant. We can now see that when he first said "window", he meant "pane".

Also, we can use his direction of movement as confirmation. Bowyer moved from the door, around the corner, towards the two windows. So once he turned the corner the smallest window is "nearer" to him, and therefore one lower pane is also nearer, and the other is obviously further.
So, in the smallest window, the "farthest pane" is the one on the left (as viewed from outside), not the one next to the drainpipe.

This must confirm that it was the left side pane (as we look at the photo), and not the right side pane which has traditionally been assumed to be the one used for access.

G'day Jon

Personally I agree with your summation and have always thought that it was the lower left as we look at it, but I have also been bemused by his reference to the farthest window, in his first sentence you quote, if [and I don't think it to be so] he was referring to the small window as the farthest window, t makes the pane on our right the farthest pane.

I hope that makes sense.

I guess what I am trying to say, in a nutshell is that while I believe it is the lower left can see room for confusion, in any event I would suggest that the lock would have been accessible whatever pane it was.

[Wickerman]

Just my 2p worth.

Many years ago, late 90's I think it was, Bob Hinton constructed a physical mock-up of that window & its relationship to the door. All the dimensions used to size the door, and window, and their relationship to each other, were taken from the dimensions of the standard house brick, plus the typical width of the cement line between.

At the time I was discussing this with Bob I was employed in the Engineering Dept. for Westinghouse and was able to use AutoCad to create a three dimensional image for this exercise using the same house brick dimensions.
Don't ask me what they were now, its too long ago

Anyhow, both Bob and I worked on the same assumption (same as Richard), that the broken pane was the nearest to the corner.
I don't work with AutoCad anymore so I'm not able to repeat the exercise for this "furthest" pane.