Mary Jane and Blotchy

[Wickerman]

Alf Garnet for one.

Interesting observation, I figured the character was British "frew 'n frew".

[Wickerman]

She's definitely undressed & did so voluntarily. Her clothes were neatly folded. Her killer could have been someone she knew who was not a punter. But whoever it was, he was confident that she was asleep or relaxed enough not to see his intent until it was too late. In my opinion she undresses for bed with someone already there. Only because it would be difficult to creep in on her via the window and the latch without making enough noise to wake her. Let's not forget that loose hinge on her door that meant it swung back and banged on the chair by the bed. He'd have to know about that too. Kelly is a big girl & I believe she'd had fights before. The other victims were older, smaller & sicker. Easier to control. I just don't see the killer doing anything that could put his own wellbeing at risk. If Kelley breaks free & screams, he's done.

The client would pay extra for a roll on a bed, as opposed to a knee-trembler in a dark ally.
I think you have it right on all points.

[Wickerman]

... I don't think we can say with any degree of certainty it meant Kelly's final customer was staying the night, or that her killer was a returning punter.

Agreed, no cause to assume either was the case.

[jason_c]

She's definitely undressed & did so voluntarily. Her clothes were neatly folded. Her killer could have been someone she knew who was not a punter. But whoever it was, he was confident that she was asleep or relaxed enough not to see his intent until it was too late. In my opinion she undresses for bed with someone already there. Only because it would be difficult to creep in on her via the window and the latch without making enough noise to wake her. Let's not forget that loose hinge on her door that meant it swung back and banged on the chair by the bed. He'd have to know about that too. Kelly is a big girl & I believe she'd had fights before. The other victims were older, smaller & sicker. Easier to control. I just don't see the killer doing anything that could put his own wellbeing at risk. If Kelley breaks free & screams, he's done.

If Kelly breaks free & screams he's done? Maybe, maybe not. A cry of sorts was heard. The result; apathy by all. I think a lot of the killers risk taking with Kelly can be explained by her drunkenness. I can't guarantee Kelly was 'relaxed' or drowsy when attacked. I have known drunks ready to fight at the drop of a hat. I have also known drunks to fall asleep mid sentence. What was Kelly's precise condition of inebriation when attacked? Answers on a postcard, please.

[Michael W Richards]

Those points do fit Joseph Isaacs, he was known to dress up 'above his station', he was a 'middle-aged Jew', he did live in the area (just off Dorset St.), he was known to have worn a gold watch chain, but missing the actual watch. It was reported that when the police finally laid their hands on him they thought they had collard Jack the Ripper. Sadly though, Joseph Isaacs had spent that Thursday night in a jail in Barnet. So it was not possible that he was the man described by Hutchinson.

But it doesnt rule out the possibility that the real intention of Hutch's statement was to set suspicion on Issacs. George wouldnt have known Issacs was in custody.

[Wickerman]

But it doesnt rule out the possibility that the real intention of Hutch's statement was to set suspicion on Issacs. George wouldnt have known Issacs was in custody.

Yes, framing Isaacs was one of the thoughts that came to mind, in which case they must have known each other, but then we're going down a rabbit hole for which there is "no legitimate evidence", and I know how you prefer to stay away from theories that contain "no legitimate evidence".

[Chava]

If Kelly breaks free & screams he's done? Maybe, maybe not. A cry of sorts was heard. The result; apathy by all. I think a lot of the killers risk taking with Kelly can be explained by her drunkenness. I can't guarantee Kelly was 'relaxed' or drowsy when attacked. I have known drunks ready to fight at the drop of a hat. I have also known drunks to fall asleep mid sentence. What was Kelly's precise condition of inebriation when attacked? Answers on a postcard, please.

We know she was pretty drunk at midnight. If she didn't go out again she'd have sobered up. If she did she could have gotten even drunker. Or not. Fewer punters around to buy her a drink by 2.00 am,
However to your other point about the scream. I agree, a scream wouldn't necessarily get noticed. But a scream of 'The Ripper' might. In any case, Our Friend doesn't want any screaming at all. He prefers to work very quietly. That having been said, screaming would have been the least of his problems if Mary had woken up. She was much taller than his other victims--5'6 or 5'7 which was very tall by the standards of the day. And she was well-nourished & strong. There are stories of fights in the vicinity of the 10 Bells. Mary Jane was no shrinking violet plucked from her mother's grave.

But she didn't scream or fight. Because she was in bed. And very likely asleep when she was attacked.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

But she didn't scream or fight. Because she was in bed. And very likely asleep when she was attacked.

A kitten disturbed me about half-past three o'clock or a quarter to four. As I was turning round I heard a suppressed cry of "Oh - murder!" in a faint voice. It seemed to proceed from the court.

(Elizabeth Prater)


I sat awake until nearly four, when I heard a female's voice shouting "Murder" loudly. It seemed like the voice of a young woman. It sounded at our door. There was only one scream.

(Sarah Lewis)

[Chava]

A kitten disturbed me about half-past three o'clock or a quarter to four. As I was turning round I heard a suppressed cry of "Oh - murder!" in a faint voice. It seemed to proceed from the court.

(Elizabeth Prater)


I sat awake until nearly four, when I heard a female's voice shouting "Murder" loudly. It seemed like the voice of a young woman. It sounded at our door. There was only one scream.

(Sarah Lewis)

I know.

But then there's this from the PM:

I am sure that the body had been removed subsequent to the injury which caused her death from that side of the bedstead that was nearest the wooden partition, because of the large quantity of blood under the bedstead and the saturated condition of the sheet and the palliasse at the corner nearest the partition.

So she was lying down on the side of the bed facing the partition/wall. I think it's extremely likely she was on her side. Because if she's that far over, then I believe someone was lying there with her in that narrow bedstead. And that someone waited until she was asleep or dozing to grab the knife, kneel behind her, pull her head back & kill her. She may have awoken in the seconds before he used the knife. She may have had time to scream. But she had no time to turn & fight. My point was that if she'd had more notice of the attack, if she heard someone trying to get in & woke up properly, then that would have been a very different scene from the one presented & she'd be yelling her head off. And we know from Cox's & Prater's evidence that she had a fine pair of lungs on her. Whether she won that fight or not it's bad news for him. (And I quite like her chances. He has a knife. But his choice of victims suggest he prefers them incapacitated in some major way before he attacks. I doubt he's prepared for someone as big or as strong as Mary Jane.)

[jason_c]

We know she was pretty drunk at midnight. If she didn't go out again she'd have sobered up. If she did she could have gotten even drunker. Or not. Fewer punters around to buy her a drink by 2.00 am,
However to your other point about the scream. I agree, a scream wouldn't necessarily get noticed. But a scream of 'The Ripper' might. In any case, Our Friend doesn't want any screaming at all. He prefers to work very quietly. That having been said, screaming would have been the least of his problems if Mary had woken up. She was much taller than his other victims--5'6 or 5'7 which was very tall by the standards of the day. And she was well-nourished & strong. There are stories of fights in the vicinity of the 10 Bells. Mary Jane was no shrinking violet plucked from her mother's grave.

But she didn't scream or fight. Because she was in bed. And very likely asleep when she was attacked.

Do you honestly believe armed with a sharp knife Kelly's killer would be under serious threat of physical danger from her? I think you overestimate a drunken females ability to overpower a man all too eager to use the knife he carried. If Kelly was no shrinking violet neither was her killer(at least when armed with a knife).

How easy was to get alcohol during the wee hours? Again, answers on a postcard. What you call sobering up I can just as easily describe as becoming more tired, more drowsy, less aware of her surroundings and dangers.

[Michael W Richards]

Yes, framing Isaacs was one of the thoughts that came to mind, in which case they must have known each other, but then we're going down a rabbit hole for which there is "no legitimate evidence", and I know how you prefer to stay away from theories that contain "no legitimate evidence".

Nice tongue in cheek response. I can only say this....eventually, faced with a dilemma, once youve compiled all the legitimate evidence without a clear direction with which to proceed, you need to explore the most reasonable, logical and defensible story line to find a possible answer. It may not be provable within the knowns, but Ive found that the most reasonable answers often can produce tangible results. Crimes are solved every day, everywhere, even when the validated evidence isnt conclusive.

Lets be honest, its not like anyone will ever solve these to everyones satisfaction, any smoking gun is still undiscovered, or undiscoverable.

[Chava]

Do you honestly believe armed with a sharp knife Kelly's killer would be under serious threat of physical danger from her? I think you overestimate a drunken females ability to overpower a man all too eager to use the knife he carried. If Kelly was no shrinking violet neither was her killer(at least when armed with a knife).

How easy was to get alcohol during the wee hours? Again, answers on a postcard. What you call sobering up I can just as easily describe as becoming more tired, more drowsy, less aware of her surroundings and dangers.

Yes actually I do.

Even if I go by the strict letter of my own profile as to how the victims self-select, there are dozens of women who would qualify on any given night.
But he always selects the old, the short, the sick or the very drunk, generally apart from Kelly all of the above. And he wasn't 'all too eager to use the knife he carried'. He used it in very specific circumstances. He ripped them. After death. But he was very careful to kill them quickly before they could do anything to defend themselves. He's looking to kill fast. He's avoiding those who might resist him. A woman likely the same size as him hitting out, struggling, kicking, probably screaming. No. That is precisely what he doesn't want.

But of course your mileage may vary.
Also your postcards...

[Wickerman]

Nice tongue in cheek response. I can only say this....eventually, faced with a dilemma, once youve compiled all the legitimate evidence without a clear direction with which to proceed, you need to explore the most reasonable, logical and defensible story line to find a possible answer. It may not be provable within the knowns, but Ive found that the most reasonable answers often can produce tangible results. Crimes are solved every day, everywhere, even when the validated evidence isnt conclusive.

Lets be honest, its not like anyone will ever solve these to everyones satisfaction, any smoking gun is still undiscovered, or undiscoverable.

Ok, but the reality as you seem to see it is to dismiss what other witnesses reported, and replace their accounts with your own speculation.
You dismiss them without giving a reason, take for instance the statements of Bowyer, Kennedy & Lewis do not conflict with any factual information obtained from elsewhere.
Perhaps it is because most of the significant statements by these three are only found in the press, yet the one case you have shown considerable interest in is the Stride case, where the bulk of all our sources come from the press.
There's a double-standard here, if you can believe Mrs Mortimer (Stride case) then you can believe Mrs Kennedy (Kelly case).

[Wickerman]

Do you honestly believe armed with a sharp knife Kelly's killer would be under serious threat of physical danger from her? I think you overestimate a drunken females ability to overpower a man all too eager to use the knife he carried. If Kelly was no shrinking violet neither was her killer(at least when armed with a knife).

For what it's worth Jason, I take it he strangled her on the bed, she would be face-down on the side of the bed against the partition. He is on her back strangling her, then grabs her by the hair pulling her head up off the pillow and with the knife in his right hand, runs the knife across her throat from left to right. This would spray the partition and cause the most blood loss to go down the side of the bed. The killer then rolls her over onto her back, to begin his mutilation.
Dr Phillips said she had been moved across the bed from the partition side, because he knew she had been killed against the partition. He just didn't explain his belief in any detail.

How easy was to get alcohol during the wee hours? Again, answers on a postcard. What you call sobering up I can just as easily describe as becoming more tired, more drowsy, less aware of her surroundings and dangers.

Postcard:
Pubs closed at 12:30 am on weekdays, Kelly had no more ale that night/morning.
She had plenty of time to sober up before 2:00 when she meets Hutchinson.

[Bridewell]

Postcard:
Pubs closed at 12:30 am on weekdays, Kelly had no more ale that night/morning.
She had plenty of time to sober up before 2:00 when she meets Hutchinson.

An hour and a half is "plenty of time to sober up"? Not in my experience.