Mary Jane and Blotchy

[Abby Normal]

hi Mark
i dont have a pic but i was under the impression that the quart beer cans back then were like big cans with a lid

[Mark J D]

I don’t know if this is exactly what was referenced, but I found this photo on Pinterest of what is apparently a Victorian quart pewter beer tankard. I know pewter tankards were common serving vessels in pubs, not sure if this is what the witness meant by a quart can however:

No sign of an image there, at least on my machine.

Myself, I find it hard to imagine pub or beer-shop carry-outs being sold in any vessel that doesn't have a fixable, sealable top, like a cork. There'd be so much spillage in transit otherwise...




Mark D.

[Single-O-Seven]

I don’t know if this is exactly what was referenced, but I found this photo on Pinterest of what is apparently a Victorian quart pewter beer tankard. I know pewter tankards were common serving vessels in pubs, not sure if this is what the witness meant by a quart can however:


personally, I always pictured something like a quart paint can, with a handle on it.

[Mark J D]

and agree that quart can could have been used to take her heart away. hes always been one of my least weak suspects, its just we dont have a name for him.

Hi Abby. Can I shyly ask for a photo of the kind of container you have in mind here?

Thanks and best wishes,

Mark D.

[Abby Normal]

The more I think about it, the more I think Blotchy is our man.

I reckon that by the time Elizabeth Prater returned to her room, Mary was either asleep or dead.

We have George's unlikely 45 minute vigil; we have the odd newspaper account and no way of knowing where they got that information from; we have Mary's unlikely 'murder' shout (given that studies suggest most women freeze in that situation and we do not hear of other women being attacked shouting 'murder' in pretty much any murder case). I reckon these have served merely to confuse.

We have Blotchy seen going into the room, with his booze suggesting this was more than a 5 minute arrangement, and we have Mary murdered at the side of the bed which suggests somebody was lying beside her, i.e. someone there with a more than 5 minute arrangement.

Which means Dr Bond may well have fluked his way to an approximately accurate TOD.

agree fm. and agree that quart can could have been used to take her heart away. hes always been one of my least weak suspects, its just we dont have a name for him.

[barnflatwyngarde]

That quart beer can might have made a nice vessel for Blotchy to conceal Mary's heart in and walk away with.

Interesting point!

I hadn't considered that.

[Single-O-Seven]

That quart beer can might have made a nice vessel for Blotchy to conceal Mary's heart in and walk away with.

[Fleetwood Mac]

The more I think about it, the more I think Blotchy is our man.

I reckon that by the time Elizabeth Prater returned to her room, Mary was either asleep or dead.

We have George's unlikely 45 minute vigil; we have the odd newspaper account and no way of knowing where they got that information from; we have Mary's unlikely 'murder' shout (given that studies suggest most women freeze in that situation and we do not hear of other women being attacked shouting 'murder' in pretty much any murder case). I reckon these have served merely to confuse.

We have Blotchy seen going into the room, with his booze suggesting this was more than a 5 minute arrangement, and we have Mary murdered at the side of the bed which suggests somebody was lying beside her, i.e. someone there with a more than 5 minute arrangement.

Which means Dr Bond may well have fluked his way to an approximately accurate TOD.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I understand the point you are making, it's just that I doubt people keep lists of crimes where someone waited a few days before coming to police.
Or make lists of witnesses watching a suspicious couple, or lists of how long witnesses waited before they lost interest.
I certainly don't, I can't imagine you do either.

We would have written statements just as we have from the witnesses in this case and witnesses in every other case.

Of all of those witness statements we have, George alone kept a 45 minute vigil when he had absolutely no idea a crime was about to take place.

That's pretty unusual, Jon, to the point of being extremely unusual.

[Wickerman]

The important point is that George tells us his reason for being there: he is intrigued by the man.

He has seen no physical or verbal assault, he has no indication a murder is in store.

George claims he undertook a 45 minute vigil simply because he is intrigued by a man. Not merely standing around idly, but a vigil as a result of an intriguing man.

Yes, his focus appears to be the man, and the fact Mary was with someone so well dressed, well above her usual clientele.

For those who think George was involved, it is odd that he would say the man did not look threatening, as if Mary was in any danger. George said he did not suspect the man to be the murderer.
This is counterintuitive, for if George was involved, as some suspect, a more natural response would be for him to say he did have suspicions about the man. It would be a perfect justification for being there and waiting so long.

We know from history that this is an extremely unlikely event. Witnesses do not undertake a 45 minute vigil based on an 'intriguing man' when they have no indication that a crime is about to be committed. You'll struggle to find any such events related to any murder case in the world.

That renders George one in a million, meaning an extremely unlikely event.

I understand the point you are making, it's just that I doubt people keep lists of crimes where someone waited a few days before coming to police.
Or make lists of witnesses watching a suspicious couple, or lists of how long witnesses waited before they lost interest.
I certainly don't, I can't imagine you do either.

There are times we have read about people watching suspicious characters. One case I know about involved two female real estate agents. One watched a suspicious man enter the house opposite where her friend was on duty in charge of an open-house.
She was suspicious because the man circled the housing estate in a white mustang several times, then stopped at the house opposite.
He entered the house, she was concerned because she saw no movement in the windows of figures walking around the house.
The white mustang was still there an hour later when her shift ended, she went home.
The first estate agent did not go to police until she heard of the murder.
We are not going to find an exact duplicate of the Hutchinson vigil scenario, but we know he had nothing else to do and nowhere to go. One place was just as good as any other.
Apparently, Abberline was sufficiently street-wise to not see anything suspicious about a man standing around doing nothing, troubling no-one.

There are crimes though where we hear of witnesses coming forward several days after a crime is reported, some don't come forward at all until found by police. Lawende falls into that last category, he was discovered by police.
Many witnesses resist coming forward out of reluctance to get involved, or only show up days after the event.
There's nothing intrinsically suspicious about either of these activities, though lots of theorists try to play it up out of all proportion.

I think Hutchinson's actions and reactions are perfectly normal for the times and for the circumstances, assuming what we read is true.

[Michael W Richards]

When the above is pointed out, some people fall back on: 'the police believed him'. The police aren't infallible. We know from experience that they get a lot of things wrong. I think the strength of George's statement should stand or fall on that statement, as opposed to who believed him.

Quite frankly, George's statement is ludicrous.

Wow, I get to agree with someone, and they with me. This is new. The suspect description alone should cause anyone to question his entire statement. Its also 4 days late. Its also based on an unsubstantiated knowledge of Mary and her of him.

We do know from someone else that there was someone there at the time, before George steps in to take his place on Monday night. That someone caused the police to take action Saturday afternoon, issuing the Pardon for Accomplices. So when George comes in the police have been under the suspicion that Wideawake Hat man may have been an accomplice. What happens after George comes in Monday night? That idea is shelved, because George seems to indicate he was just watching out for a friend. Someone...which we will never know...may not have even known George.

George changed police perceptions about Wideawake with his statement, and in my opinion, thats why he gave the statement in the first place.

[Fleetwood Mac]

But what if the real reason for his vigil was that he was hoping that the man would leave shortly so that he could ask Mary if he could spend the night? Free shelter and maybe a roll in the hay. That would be in line with his close inspection of Mary's client possibly in an attempt to convince him that a quick one with Mary would be better than spending the night with her. In other words, intimidation.

c.d.

In my view, it is more likely that George was there but the motive he gave us was a lie, than it is George was there and his simple motive of 'intriguing man' led him to undertake a 45 minute vigil, was true.

The problem is that we have to invent motives to give George credence, and in the event we assume one part of George's statement was a lie, i.e. the motive; then that compromises his entire statement.

[c.d.]

The important point is that George tells us his reason for being there: he is intrigued by the man.

He has seen no physical or verbal assault, he has no indication a murder is in store.

George claims he undertook a 45 minute vigil simply because he is intrigued by a man. Not merely standing around idly, but a vigil as a result of an intriguing man.

We know from history that this is an extremely unlikely event. Witnesses do not undertake a 45 minute vigil based on an 'intriguing man' when they have no indication that a crime is about to be committed. You'll struggle to find any such events related to any murder case in the world.

That renders George one in a million, meaning an extremely unlikely event.

But what if the real reason for his vigil was that he was hoping that the man would leave shortly so that he could ask Mary if he could spend the night? Free shelter and maybe a roll in the hay. That would be in line with his close inspection of Mary's client possibly in an attempt to convince him that a quick one with Mary would be better than spending the night with her. In other words, intimidation.

c.d.

[Lewis C]

Except that what Abberline wrote was to his superiors, not the press.
You don't believe Abberline had to include his superiors in the deception too, do you?
There was nothing in the press about Abberline believing Hutchinson, only that the police continued to investigate both witness stories.

That's a good point.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Yes he did stop and watch the couple disappear up the court, and he did actually follow on after, and went up the court himself. He says he stood around listening but couldn't hear any noise coming from the room, so he went back to the street and waited a while longer before walking off.

The important point is that George tells us his reason for being there: he is intrigued by the man.

He has seen no physical or verbal assault, he has no indication a murder is in store.

George claims he undertook a 45 minute vigil simply because he is intrigued by a man. Not merely standing around idly, but a vigil as a result of an intriguing man.

We know from history that this is an extremely unlikely event. Witnesses do not undertake a 45 minute vigil based on an 'intriguing man' when they have no indication that a crime is about to be committed. You'll struggle to find any such events related to any murder case in the world.

That renders George one in a million, meaning an extremely unlikely event.