Mary Jane and Blotchy

[Abby Normal]

Not as far as I know. He took statements from James Martin and Elizabeth Haynes. Steve Earp did have transcipts of these with Abberline's marginalia on his website, which appears to be knackered and no longer works. The police statements indicate that detectives were sent to Bury's execuation and were ordered to make nothing public. I tend to think it must have been abberline in charge of the investiagtion into Bury.

Really though, the witness descriptions/clothing etc are small fry when discussing Bury. Not only did Bury stab and cut areas the ripper liked (some of the things Bury did must surely be classed as extremely rare and found also on Eddowes), prior to this he seems to have fluked a near identical way of strangling his wife with a cord leaving a mark all the way around the neck apart from a couple of inches to the left of the spine - same as found on Mylett. I find the combination of these things extraodinary sus - Bury has the same sig as the ripper and same strangulation MO as some bloke that took a prostitue into a dark corner and throttled her. Surely Dr Brownfield was made aware of the latter. Shame the file on Bury is no more.

ok thanks!!

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

If we don't know who Aman was, how do we know he was Jewish?

If Elizabeth Long did not see her suspect's face, how did SHE know he was Jewish?

[Wickerman]

If Elizabeth Long did not see her suspect's face, how did SHE know he was Jewish?

As fashion is often universal today it can be hard to tell ethnicity from the way a person is dressed.
This was not the case in the late Victorian period, in fact society expected you to dress according to your station in life.
Mrs. Long was reported to have said "..he looked like a foreigner", not that he "was" a foreigner. This would imply she was influenced by the clothes he wore.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

As fashion is often universal today it can be hard to tell ethnicity from the way a person is dressed.
This was not the case in the late Victorian period, in fact society expected you to dress according to your station in life.
Mrs. Long was reported to have said "..he looked like a foreigner", not that he "was" a foreigner. This would imply she was influenced by the clothes he wore.

Well, I don't want to go over old ground, but I did write long ago that Jews and Gentiles were distinguishable in East London at that time and was made to suffer for it, as if I had crossed some red line.

Would you then agree with me that when Lawende described his suspect as a man with a fair moustache and the appearance of a sailor, he was indicating that he looked like a Gentile?

[Chava]

As fashion is often universal today it can be hard to tell ethnicity from the way a person is dressed.
This was not the case in the late Victorian period, in fact society expected you to dress according to your station in life.
Mrs. Long was reported to have said "..he looked like a foreigner", not that he "was" a foreigner. This would imply she was influenced by the clothes he wore.

Or by the colouring and features of his face. My family have looked like foreigners in the UK since we arrived in 1911...
Also, respectfully, I don't think we should parse every word to mean exactly what it says. After all 'it looks like rain' doesn't mean 'These small drops of water look like...'
'He looked like a foreigner' would I think generally be taken to mean 'he was a foreigner'.

[Wickerman]

Or by the colouring and features of his face. My family have looked like foreigners in the UK since we arrived in 1911...
Also, respectfully, I don't think we should parse every word to mean exactly what it says. After all 'it looks like rain' doesn't mean 'These small drops of water look like...'
'He looked like a foreigner' would I think generally be taken to mean 'he was a foreigner'.

The problem is, she was reported to have said "I did not see the man's face".
Mrs Long appears to have approached the couple from the man's rear.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If Elizabeth Long did not see her suspect's face, how did SHE know he was Jewish?

She didn’t mention him being Jewish as far as I’m aware? She said that he looked like a foreigner.

[Wickerman]

Well, I don't want to go over old ground, but I did write long ago that Jews and Gentiles were distinguishable in East London at that time and was made to suffer for it, as if I had crossed some red line.

While we should accept that no rule can be absolute, I would generally agree with you that the attire of a Jew, especially one reasonably well to do, is easily distinguishable from the attire of a Gentile in the same class. Whereas a Gentile or Jew of the labouring class may not be so easily distinguishable.

Would you then agree with me that when Lawende described his suspect as a man with a fair moustache and the appearance of a sailor, he was indicating that he looked like a Gentile?

This is one of those instances I cited above, the man seen by Lawende appears to be of the lower labouring class, but I would still be more inclined to think of him as a Gentile.

[Chava]

While we should accept that no rule can be absolute, I would generally agree with you that the attire of a Jew, especially one reasonably well to do, is easily distinguishable from the attire of a Gentile in the same class. Whereas a Gentile or Jew of the labouring class may not be so easily distinguishable.

I'm sorry, what? Do you think well-to-do Jews wore caftans or something? At that point the richer Jews had been around for quite a while & were well-established. They dressed like any other people of their income group. The immigrants would wear very basic, cheap clothing. However they likely would always have had their heads covered. And they also likely did not 'labour' in the same way. I doubt there would be too many Jewish dockworkers. They were generally shut out from a lot of labouring occupations. So they worked for other Jews in the clothing factories. Or they worked in kosher slaughterhouses. Or they went out as old clothes men or pedlars on their own account.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I doubt there would be too many Jewish dockworkers.

There were none.

[Chava]

There were none.

I know.
I was being facetious. The Eastern European Jewish immigrant experience is one I head all about growing up.
Also I'm pretty sure that 'foreigner' meant 'Jew' in Whitechapel in 1888. The waves of immigration had led to an extraordinary explosion of different-looking & sounding people in the area in a fairly short time. The population went from 46000 in the mid 19th C to 250000 by 1920. And most of them went to the East End.

[Chava]

Actually, I was trying to make a pun, but I think he met Kelly far too early in the evening/night to be a suspect in her murder.

I'm posting this not to take a shot at you but to make a general observation. We don't know the nurderer's MO. There seems to be a general belief that he picked the women up & then attacked them as soon as it was safe to do so. But the fact is we have no evidence to suggest that. And even if he attacked quickly in one murder he may not have attacked in the same way in another. We have two witnesses to suggest that Kelly may have been out on the pull after Blotchy left. One of which I find difficult to believe. The other wasn't called to the inquest. Either or both could have seen Kelly.

However whether or not their statements were correct, Kelly was dressed for bed & lying in bed likely asleep when she was attacked. So she was comfortable enough to allow her last punter to stay the night with her. Or one of the punters she brought back to her room saw how the latch was used & noticed the broken window. Gained quiet entry into the room. And attacked her. Is this evidence for Blotchy? No. But Blotchy was definitely in the room with her. He might have crept out while she was singing. Gone on his merry way. Then returned. Or not.

[Observer]

I doubt there would be too many Jewish dockworkers.

Alf Garnet for one.

[jason_c]

I'm posting this not to take a shot at you but to make a general observation. We don't know the nurderer's MO. There seems to be a general belief that he picked the women up & then attacked them as soon as it was safe to do so. But the fact is we have no evidence to suggest that. And even if he attacked quickly in one murder he may not have attacked in the same way in another. We have two witnesses to suggest that Kelly may have been out on the pull after Blotchy left. One of which I find difficult to believe. The other wasn't called to the inquest. Either or both could have seen Kelly.

However whether or not their statements were correct, Kelly was dressed for bed & lying in bed likely asleep when she was attacked. So she was comfortable enough to allow her last punter to stay the night with her. Or one of the punters she brought back to her room saw how the latch was used & noticed the broken window. Gained quiet entry into the room. And attacked her. Is this evidence for Blotchy? No. But Blotchy was definitely in the room with her. He might have crept out while she was singing. Gone on his merry way. Then returned. Or not.

You make a very good point about Kelly being dressed for bed. Though I don't think we can read too much into that. Kelly could have disrobed on account of this being her last customer. It may also have been a perk for a punter who was willing to pay a bit extra. I don't think we can say with any degree of certainty it meant Kelly's final customer was staying the night, or that her killer was a returning punter.

[Chava]

You make a very good point about Kelly being dressed for bed. Though I don't think we can read too much into that. Kelly could have disrobed on account of this being her last customer. It may also have been a perk for a punter who was willing to pay a bit extra. I don't think we can say with any degree of certainty it meant Kelly's final customer was staying the night, or that her killer was a returning punter.

She's definitely undressed & did so voluntarily. Her clothes were neatly folded. Her killer could have been someone she knew who was not a punter. But whoever it was, he was confident that she was asleep or relaxed enough not to see his intent until it was too late. In my opinion she undresses for bed with someone already there. Only because it would be difficult to creep in on her via the window and the latch without making enough noise to wake her. Let's not forget that loose hinge on her door that meant it swung back and banged on the chair by the bed. He'd have to know about that too. Kelly is a big girl & I believe she'd had fights before. The other victims were older, smaller & sicker. Easier to control. I just don't see the killer doing anything that could put his own wellbeing at risk. If Kelley breaks free & screams, he's done.