Mary Kelly. Where Else Can We Look?

[Bridewell]

G'day Bridewell

One of the best matches I've yet to see.

Born in '62 so 26 in '88 when MJK was said to be 25.

In 71 could she have been staying with other family ie Grand parents Uncle etc?

I don't currently have access to death records for Scotland but know from experience that sometimes people are just missing off them anyway, especially when they die very young.

Thanks, GUT. I'll keep digging!

[Bridewell]

Thanks, GUT. I'll keep digging! There's a huge number of Scottish men named John Kelly though. I've found two so far who enlisted in the Royal Scots Fusiliers.

[Natasha]

I've been doing a little more research around my thought that Barnett might have misunderstood Limerigg as Limerick (Limerigg being a small village about 20 miles east of Glasgow). Mary Kelly herself is the proverbial needle in a haystack, as everyone knows, so I looked for a John Kelly with a Scottish military connection. Still nothing connected to the Scots Guards, but I did find a John Kelly, born June 1863 who enlisted in the Royal Scots Fusiliers on 10th December 1885:-

On the 1881 census the guy I think is him was living at 28, Grace Street, Glasgow Barony with:

John Kelly (42) Engine Keeper (looks like this was in an iron works)
Susan Kelly (41)
William Kelly (21) Coppersmith
John Kelly (17) Iron Turner
Jane Kelly (14) Machinist
Thomas Kelly (11)
Samuel Kelly (8)
Jane Scott (60) (Mother-in-Law to Head of Household).

No mention of a Mary however. I then checked the birth records and found that a John Kelly and a Susan Scott registered the birth of a Mary Kelly who was born on 5th February 1862. This girl isn't listed with the family in the 1871 census but, as the Kelly and Scott surnames both match, I am pretty sure this is the same couple. I'm tempted to conclude that this Mary Kelly died young but unfortunately the Scottish death records don't seem to be accessible through Ancestry for some reason. I did find a Mary Kelly who was living with her brother, Thomas (Foundry Worker), in the same area (Glasgow Barony), but this Mary is a Warehouse Girl aged 13. I suppose it's just conceivable that a brother might lie about his sister's age in order to get her out and earning but could a 9-year-old pass for 13? I'd like to pursue this (in preference to that infernal shawl!). Does anyone have access to the Scottish death records before I commit too much time to it?

Hi Bridewell

I'm starting to think the mining accident in Scotland I discovered may be significant. Thanks for investigating this further.

I see you are looking for more info and are not having any luck with Ancestry. The following link may be helpful:

http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

[Bridewell]

Thanks, Natasha!

I've been looking at birth records and found the following:-

Mary Ann Ellen KELLY, child of John KELLY (Engineer) and Mary Ann KELLY.

There are numerous Mary Kellys obviously, but this caught my eye because the record is of a baptism at Christchurch Spitalfields on 4th February 1888 and the address of the family is 4, Little Paternoster Row which was a narrow passage running between Dorset Street and Brushfield Street (along which Annie Chapman walked on the last night of her life).

Has anyone come across a Mary Kelly living on Little Paternoster Row before?

[Bridewell]

Apologies. The date in the last post should read 4th February 1883.

[Amanda Sumner]

Mrs Lawrence

Just to throw a spanner in the works....
I have never believed "Kelly" was her real name. It certainly explains why she has been difficult to find, and no one has satisfactorily found any results that positively identifies her.

Recently I came across this news article dated 1889 that possibly might shed light on the mystery. It could be a simple case of getting the name wrong but all the other victims names are correct. ( Sorry, they got Tabram wrong too ) Where did Lawrence come from? Might be worth looking into....

What does anyone else think? I find it very odd.

http://clickamericana.com/topics/notable-people/jack-the-ripper-once-more-plies-his-knife-1889

[Bridewell]

Hi Amanda,

It is strange that all the surnames are correct except for that one. I have read the Lawrence reference somewhere else, so maybe there is a common source. I feel pretty sure that Chris Scott will have researched the Lawrence angle also - presumably without success.

[Bridewell]

On another MJK thread (Hair Colour) Mr Barnett made reference to the 'Fair Emma' nickname, saying:-

Perhaps Fair Emma was a reference to Emma Hamilton.

If it was, would that be because of a resemblance or something else in her background?

In the 1871 census there is a Kelly family living at 25, Muir Street, Hamilton (which is 16 miles from the Limerigg I keep banging on about!).

Michael KELLY (35) Coal Miner
Catherine KELLY (33)
Michael KELLY (13)
James KELLY (12)
Hugh KELLY (10)
John KELLY (8)
Mary KELLY (7)
Patrick KELLY (5)
Bernard KELLY (3)
Frances KELLY (1)

The same family appears in the 1881 census at 5, Barrack Street, Hamilton with Frances missing (perhaps died in infancy?), with Thomas (8) & Peter (5) added.

In 1891 (at 1, Watson Street, Hamilton) Catherine is missing (perhaps deceased), as are Michael & James who have presumably left home. Also missing is Mary (possibly married?), but added is Helen (7).

In 1901 there is no Helen but there is a 16-year-old Ellen (granddaughter to the Head of the Household) who seems likely to be one and the same.

[Natasha]

On another MJK thread (Hair Colour) Mr Barnett made reference to the 'Fair Emma' nickname, saying:-



If it was, would that be because of a resemblance or something else in her background?

In the 1871 census there is a Kelly family living at 25, Muir Street, Hamilton (which is 16 miles from the Limerigg I keep banging on about!).

Michael KELLY (35) Coal Miner
Catherine KELLY (33)
Michael KELLY (13)
James KELLY (12)
Hugh KELLY (10)
John KELLY (8)
Mary KELLY (7)
Patrick KELLY (5)
Bernard KELLY (3)
Frances KELLY (1)

The same family appears in the 1881 census at 5, Barrack Street, Hamilton with Frances missing (perhaps died in infancy?), with Thomas (8) & Peter (5) added.

In 1891 (at 1, Watson Street, Hamilton) Catherine is missing (perhaps deceased), as are Michael & James who have presumably left home. Also missing is Mary (possibly married?), but added is Helen (7).

In 1901 there is no Helen but there is a 16-year-old Ellen (granddaughter to the Head of the Household) who seems likely to be one and the same.

Hi Bridewell

The fact that there are 6 brothers and 1 sister, is possibly a very good semblance to Kelly's story. Kelly also said, of course according to Barnett, that her sister was very fond of her, I would take that to mean she looked up to her older sister Mary.

I know people will say "yeah, but there are alot of Kelly familys etc" but I think this family are good candidates.

Possibly a significant find. Good find!

[Amanda Sumner]

Hi, Bridewell,
It is a good find but is not conclusive.
The fair Emma is interesting...Emma Kelly? Emma Davies, Emma Lawrence? Was Kelly her married name?
I don't think she was named after Emma Hamilton. That is conjecture. She died decades before MJK was born.
It is odd. There must be some record of her somewhere.
Her landlady was quite definite she was Welsh which adds to the mystery.

Who was Mary Jane Kelly?

Amanda

[MrBarnett]

There was a famous English beauty who was renowned for her abundant auburn hair. In the 1880's, her recently acquired portraits hung in the national gallery, and she was known as fair Emma Hamilton.

The idea that a young woman of similar physical attributes might be called 'fair Emma' doesn't seem too much of a stretch.

MrB

[Amanda Sumner]

There was a famous English beauty who was renowned for her abundant auburn hair. In the 1880's, her recently acquired portraits hung in the national gallery, and she was known as fair Emma Hamilton.

The idea that a young woman of similar physical attributes might be called 'fair Emma' doesn't seem too much of a stretch.

MrB

Not in the normal sense, no, but were the poor of Eastend London aware of this famous beauty who died decades ago? Were they likely to be visiting the national gallery?

Just a thought

Amanda

[MrBarnett]

Not in the normal sense, no, but were the poor of Eastend London aware of this famous beauty who died decades ago? Were they likely to be visiting the national gallery?

Just a thought

Amanda

Hi Amanda,

I agree that your average lodging house dweller probably didn't spend much time in the National Portait Gallery, but they weren't entirely divorced from the national culture. I can't believe that not one of MJK's customers would have heard of Nelson and Lady Hamilton. But perhaps none of them had, and it was just a coincidence that she was given the same nickname as a famous lookalike.

MrB

[Amanda Sumner]

Hi Amanda,

I agree that your average lodging house dweller probably didn't spend much time in the National Portait Gallery, but they weren't entirely divorced from the national culture. I can't believe that not one of MJK's customers would have heard of Nelson and Lady Hamilton. But perhaps none of them had, and it was just a coincidence that she was given the same nickname as a famous lookalike.

MrB

I think many of them were divorced from a lot of things. A fight for survival on a daily basis can't have been easy. However, I will concede that they may have heard of Lady Hamilton.
I am pretty sure, though, that Mary Jane Kelly was not her real name....

Amanda

[MrBarnett]

Forgot to mention that Lady H.was brought up in Wales, worked in a brothel run by a Mrs Kelly and spent some time in France.

MrB