Mary Kelly. Where Else Can We Look?

[lynn cates]

beating the drum

Hello Stephen. Thanks.

Twelve angry men? Is that the one where there was a divergent point of view; yet, he kept beating the drum until others saw their intellectual faux pas?

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

I have to say that I don't quite understand this preoccupation with Mary's past. I don't mean for this to sound smart ass but is there some practical reason for these inquiries as in giving us possible clues as to who might have killed her?

c.d.

P.S. Again, I don't mean to offend with this question.

[C. F. Leon]

I have to say that I don't quite understand this preoccupation with Mary's past. I don't mean for this to sound smart ass but is there some practical reason for these inquiries as in giving us possible clues as to who might have killed her?

c.d.

P.S. Again, I don't mean to offend with this question.

Why does identifying the killer/-s have to be the ONLY concern about the case?

To try to return to the original question: Kelly & whatever family she had are probably on the census SOMEWHERE- the most likely answer is that "Mary Kelly", like "Marie Jeanette" was NOT her birth name. Chris Scott and others have said that the best chance to trace her is probably the brother in the Scots Guards- has anyone had luck with that?

Chris: just how good were the census at the time (1861-91) and how much survives to the current date? Is there much material lost? Also, recently an idea occured to me- perhaps Barnett misremembered or heard wrong and maybe Davies/Davis was Mary's husband's GIVEN name and we should look for a "Davis (or even David) Kelly"?

Another possibility might be, if the Paris story was true, looking for her in French records. How good was the French census at the time and when were they? Would they have included brothel occupants?

I also wonder about the story about Mary hearing that her father was looking for her and 'hiding'. Could it be that when she was told "Mary, your father was by the other day looking for you", she thought "What? Daddy's been dead x years" and getting a description of 'Daddy': "oh, God, it's my stalker- Morganwhatever" and that's why she hid? Speculation, of course, and probably completely unrelated to her murder, but I'm surprised no one has jumped on it for the royal conspiracy or whatever.

[Bridewell]

Scots Guards

Chris Scott and others have said that the best chance to trace her is probably the brother in the Scots Guards- has anyone had luck with that?

Chris has probably done more research on MJK than anyone, but Debra Arif, with some assistance from others (myself included), has done quite a lot of research into Kellys in the Scots Guards:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6544

[lynn cates]

connections

Hello CD.

"is there some practical reason for these inquiries as in giving us possible clues as to who might have killed her?"

Certainly. It helps one see her connections to others.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

Chris has probably done more research on MJK than anyone, but Debra Arif, with some assistance from others (myself included), has done quite a lot of research into Kellys in the Scots Guards:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6544

Considering the popularity of researching family trees in this country Bridewell, some one may well have stumbled on the Mary Kelly in question already. The answer may lie in some insignificant little jotter somewhere.

[Stephen Thomas]

Twelve angry men? Is that the one where there was a divergent point of view; yet, he kept beating the drum until others saw their intellectual faux pas?

Well you could put it that that way, Lynn but I reckon that the non academic film fan would say the witness was blind as a bat. Like Mrs Maxwell may have been.

Who is your third next morning witness?

[The Good Michael]

I've always wondered about a Scottish connection with Mary...the West of Scotland seems a far more likely destination for an Irish family than Wales.

Why do you say this? Aside from Barra, I don't think the Scots would have been very welcoming to the Irish. The hatred of Catholics brought on by the insanity of Calvinism, made them the Irish targets. The Welsh would have been far easier to get on with in my opinion.

Mike

[lynn cates]

third man

Hello Stephen. Thanks.

Don't know the name off hand. That's why I said "in some stories."

Cheers.
LC

[Disco Stu]

Catholics in Scotland

Why do you say this? Aside from Barra, I don't think the Scots would have been very welcoming to the Irish. The hatred of Catholics brought on by the insanity of Calvinism, made them the Irish targets. The Welsh would have been far easier to get on with in my opinion.

Mike

I'm glad you said opinion. My own ancestors (well, some of them) were Irish Catholics coming in to Scotland and they got along just fine. Around the end of the 19th century there were lots of immigrants flooding into Scotland from all parts of Europe, including Catholics and Jews. I won't say there was no intolerance, but I doubt it compared to what they were leaving behind.

[Cogidubnus]

There is a huge (originally Irish) RC presence in Glasgow at least...hence the "Old Firm" competition between Rangers and Celtic Football Clubs...

The calvinistic wee frees actually divided the protestant faith north of the border and thus in many ways weakened it...

All the best

Dave

[Bridewell]

Irish Families In Scotland

Why do you say this? Aside from Barra, I don't think the Scots would have been very welcoming to the Irish. The hatred of Catholics brought on by the insanity of Calvinism, made them the Irish targets.

The family in Hamilton is an Irish one with the Kelly surname. Were they welcome? Who knows? The fact remains that they were there.

[Bridewell]

I'm glad you said opinion. My own ancestors (well, some of them) were Irish Catholics coming in to Scotland and they got along just fine. Around the end of the 19th century there were lots of immigrants flooding into Scotland from all parts of Europe, including Catholics and Jews. I won't say there was no intolerance, but I doubt it compared to what they were leaving behind.

Good post, Stu.

[Mayerling]

I'm going to give this idea a shot, although it may seem quite ghoulish (which shames me - considering what poor Mary had to go through in the early morning hours of Nov. 9, 1888). Recently we saw a well publicized sample of what we have in mind.

When the remains of King Richard III were found in the car park, one of the skeletal remains was Richard's skull. This is fortunate Besides the fact that his distant collateral descendant's DNA could be compared to his to prove the remains' identity, they took the skull and "reconstructed" it in a forensic lab using computer imaging (they used to do this with tape and other items to physical the skull - they did that with the skull of Ivan the Terrible in the 1970s. Mary's skull is still in her grave - it may not be intact anymore but we could only tell if somebody would check it. Possibly a computerized reconstruction of her skull might be done so that we can see what she looked like (not like the insanely carved up murder victim her two police photos show). I would think it would be worth a shot - if the authorities would grant such a request. But I honestly don't know if they would.

Jeff

[Wickerman]

Hi Jeff.

The most prohibitive factor must be the cost.
As her relatives are untraceable then I'm not sure who's signature is required to grant permission.

If you could get a University involved it would legitimize the process. I say this because I can imagine the onslaught of negative comments about those 'nutcase' Ripperologists are now desecrating a grave, etc.