Mary Kelly. Where Else Can We Look?

[Bridewell]

I think it's generally acknowledged that Chris Scott, particularly, has done sterling work in trying to locate the elusive Mary Jane Kelly (or whatever her real name was). Despite his best efforts and those of everyone else who has had a go, there remains nary a verifiable trace of this woman - or her family - in the historical records. I suspect that repeatedly trawling through the same sources is going to get us nowhere, so the purpose of this thread is really to generate discussion as what else, if anything, can be done?

I was going to suggest going through hospital records searching for 13, Millers Court entries, but his posts on another thread suggest that Chris has already been there. Any ideas? Anything we can do as a team, rather than as individuals perhaps?

I'm left wondering if the Kelly family were itinerants - which I guess would explain what appears to be their absence from the census returns.

We're never going to achieve consensus on the identity (or even the existence!) of JtR but finding MJK feels as though it ought to be achievable somehow. And it would be wonderful to restore, in death, some of the dignity stolen from her in life.

[moonbegger]

It seems Mrs Phoenix had a fairly good grasp on who Kelly was ! Is there anything more on this Lizzie Williams chick ?

She had two false teeth which projected very much from the lips. When living at Breezers-hill, she stated to Mrs. Phœnix that she had a child aged two years, but Mrs. Phœnix never saw it. At that time the deceased had a friend known as Lizzie Williams. Mrs. Phœnix is confident the deceased is the woman to whom she refers, although she has not seen her since she left the neighbourhood of the London Docks, where she was well known.

moonbegger

[Bridewell]

Clutching At Straws!

I've been doing a bit of checking in the Scotland censuses as those of Wales and England have been so well covered elsewhere. There is a Mary Kelly with 8 brothers and 1 sister. She's only 16 in the 1881 census but her father's name is John as is that of one of her brothers. She wasn't born in Ireland, but her parents and eldest brother were. Her own birthplace is shown as 'Hamilton', so nowhere near Limerick, but only 15.8 miles from the village of Limerigg.

Brothers:

Michael born c.1858
Jas (James?) born c.1860
Hugh born c.1861
John born c.1862
Pat born c.1867
Bernard born c.1868
Thos (Thomas) born c.1873
Peter born c.1876.

The sister (Frances) appears as a 1 year old in the 1871 census only. The same family appears in 1891 but without Mary. The most likely explanation is that she had married in the interim but it's not the only possibility.

[Wickerman]

Interesting.

We don't know how many brothers Mary had, just that 6 were (still?) living at home, and 1 in the army.
This does not mean she only had 7 brothers, there may have been more.

[I'veBeenToMitreSquare]

moonbegger,
If this Mrs Phoenix, is correct about MJK having "two false teeth, which projected very much from the lips", is there any mention of the said "teeth" in the post mortem? Does anyone else have information of this sort?
I mean, even in the state she was left, surely there would be mention of false teeth? or missing false teeth? Presuming they had the know how to say whether a corpse had been wearing false teeth, that is.

I welcome, very much, being corrected and/or "put in my place".

[Wickerman]

moonbegger,
If this Mrs Phoenix, is correct about MJK having "two false teeth, which projected very much from the lips", is there any mention of the said "teeth" in the post mortem? Does anyone else have information of this sort?
I mean, even in the state she was left, surely there would be mention of false teeth? or missing false teeth? Presuming they had the know how to say whether a corpse had been wearing false teeth, that is.

I welcome, very much, being corrected and/or "put in my place".

They would have been mentioned in the official autopsy done by Phillips, as soon as it turns up we will know for sure

(don't hold your breath)

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Why then didn't the identification made by Barnett include as a final conformation ''the teeth''.. surely that would have been conclusive.
There must have been no doubt that the body was that of the woman known as Mary Jane. the only doubt is the T,O.D.
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

Look what I've found.

Hello Jon.

"They would have been mentioned in the official autopsy done by Phillips, as soon as it turns up we will know for sure."

Don't lose heart--this IS an anniversary year. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

dubito

Hello Richard.

"the only doubt is the T.O.D."

The only one? Are you certain of that? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi Lynn
I am not certain of anything anymore, but it has to be almost certain that the body was that of the resident of room 13[ whoever she was] her clothes found including her boots [ apparently] would suggest if it wasn't Mary Jane. it would make a Excellent Hitchcock plot.
The T.O.D has to remain a question mark, because of the later sightings, not only because of Maxwell's evidence, but also Maurice Lewis, both of these people would have had to be either deliberately lying , or mistaken...One possibly but two?
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

third witness

Hello Richard. Thanks.

Agree about Hitchcock.

There were some stories that had a third witness claiming "MJK" was alive that morning.

Cheers.
LC

[DirectorDave]

I've been doing a bit of checking in the Scotland censuses as those of Wales and England have been so well covered elsewhere. There is a Mary Kelly with 8 brothers and 1 sister. She's only 16 in the 1881 census but her father's name is John as is that of one of her brothers. She wasn't born in Ireland, but her parents and eldest brother were. Her own birthplace is shown as 'Hamilton', so nowhere near Limerick, but only 15.8 miles from the village of Limerigg.

Brothers:

Michael born c.1858
Jas (James?) born c.1860
Hugh born c.1861
John born c.1862
Pat born c.1867
Bernard born c.1868
Thos (Thomas) born c.1873
Peter born c.1876.

The sister (Frances) appears as a 1 year old in the 1871 census only. The same family appears in 1891 but without Mary. The most likely explanation is that she had married in the interim but it's not the only possibility.

I've always wondered about a Scottish connection with Mary...the West of Scotland seems a far more likely destination for an Irish family than Wales.

Also why would an Irish/Welsh brother be in the Scots guards?

[Stephen Thomas]

Agree about Hitchcock.

There were some stories that had a third witness claiming "MJK" was alive that morning.

Hello Lynn

Did you ever see Twelve Angry Men? And also The Third Man?

[pinkmoon]

uncle jack

Tony Williams found the Kelly family living in Wales in his book "uncle jack "

[Stephen Thomas]

Tony Williams found the Kelly family living in Wales in his book "uncle jack "

Dear oh dear, pinkmoon.