Johnto - an idea

[caz]

John 2

Hi GM,

John 2 (two) or John too - either way we have to assume Abberline was a rotten speller, don't we?

With Johnto, plausibly from Ianto, a Welsh pet form of John, and pronounced "Jon-toh", everything adds up, including how and where it appears on the page.

Love,

Caz
X

[The Good Michael]

Hi GM,

John 2 (two) or John too - either way we have to assume Abberline was a rotten speller, don't we?

With Johnto, plausibly from Ianto, a Welsh pet form of John, and pronounced "Jon-toh", everything adds up, including how and where it appears on the page.

I've always thought it was Jon Toe (the sound). I threw in the John 2....sort of like John Jr. just for jollies.

Mike

[DVV]

How about Jaune Toux ? (sort of Hong Kong flu, but French)

[caz]

I've always thought it was Jon Toe (the sound). I threw in the John 2....sort of like John Jr. just for jollies.

Mike

Yep, me too. Jon Toe. I assumed Jon Toh would sound the same.

Love,

Caz
X

[The Good Michael]

Yep, me too. Jon Toe. I assumed Jon Toh would sound the same.

Of course they are the same. I just spelled it differently in my head.

Mike

[curious4]

Ianto

Thanks Lynn

I know a range of the best researchers in the field have tried exhaustively to find more background info on Mary.

Even if they hadn't, I don't think the info would've been very helpful - given that John is probably the worst name to search historical records for.

However, hopefully it throws something into the pot as to where the odd name of 'Johnto' may have come from.

Hello DGB,

Sure you're right. Had the same thought myself.

Best wishes,
C4

[Bridewell]

Hello Chava. That's a good question.

There was a rumour that she had a slight speech impediment. That, in turn, gave rise to speculation about accent, etc. To date, French, Welsh and Irish have all been suggested. One speculator even had Scots.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I think that may have been me - speculating that Limerick could have been an misunderstanding of Limerigg - didn't get me anywhere though!

[Bridewell]

They lived in Glasgow in 1886... ironmonger father probably.

Is this a good time to mention Limerigg again? (24 miles east of Glasgow) - a logical recruiting ground for the Scots Guards.

[Wickerman]

Hi Caz.

Hi Jon,

When Abberline was writing out Barnett's statement, he would surely have made 'John' the last word on that line and 'too' (as in also) the first word on the next line, if they were meant to be separate words, rather than squashing them together at the end of a line, only leaving himself enough room to misspell the word as 'to'.

Abberline frequently joins words together, we have numerous examples of this. He also has a tendency to squash a word on the end of a line where clearly there is insufficient room.
Even, to the point of curving a word around and down just to fit all the letters in at the edge of the paper.

What I have no evidence of is the idiosyncrasy of him writing "to" for "too". It is common enough today, we see it all the time. What I need to see are any private letters by Abberline where "too" might appear. We would not expect to see this in a police report but in personal communications, quite possibly.

[lynn cates]

story

Hello Colin. Thanks.

"speculating that Limerick could have been an misunderstanding of Limerigg - didn't get me anywhere though!"

Can one get ANYWHERE with Barnet's story?

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
As for Barnett's story, I would say it was repeated to the police in good faith, it appears [ only from Ms Kendall] that the brother in the army was traced, and belongings forwarded.
This is only hearsay however[ but believable], and until a few years ago we had no idea that this may have happened.
It would appear that her mother/father were kept out of the media [ for understandable reasons] although I would suggest that the police knew of their whereabouts.
Because of the shame, it is quite conceivable that the whole family emigrated, and I have still not discounted the alleged picture of a younger Mary Kelly which Chris Scots informant sent .
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

shame

Hello Richard. Thanks.

"As for Barnett's story, I would say it was repeated to the police in good faith."

No reason to believe otherwise.

"Because of the shame, it is quite conceivable that the whole family emigrated"

But surely this could be offered vis-a-vis ANY of the WCM victim's families?

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Hi Caz.

Abberline frequently joins words together, we have numerous examples of this. He also has a tendency to squash a word on the end of a line where clearly there is insufficient room.
Even, to the point of curving a word around and down just to fit all the letters in at the edge of the paper.

What I have no evidence of is the idiosyncrasy of him writing "to" for "too". It is common enough today, we see it all the time. What I need to see are any private letters by Abberline where "too" might appear. We would not expect to see this in a police report but in personal communications, quite possibly.

Fair point, Jon.

I would, however, have expected Abberline to use the word 'also' in a police report. And what are common mistakes today were not necessarily common back then, when a lot more emphasis was placed on correct spelling and grammar at school.

Love,

Caz
X

[RivkahChaya]

Regarding "embarrassment," and the Kellys moving, I wonder if possibly something that may have been a minor scandal at the time, but not so much by today's standards, caused them to move from Ireland to Wales in the first place, and possible change the family name.

There was a bit of a scandal in my family, and I descended from the black sheep, so I know what happened, but the other family members may not actually know what happened to them. It involves some intermarriage, excommunication, conversion, and a couple moving from the South to New York. When I first found out some of my ancestors were Southerners, I asked said to my uncle "Please tell me we're not related to Judah Benjamin (we're not)." Also, my grandmother, albeit Jewish, had the maiden name Fitzpatrick, something her employer didn't know. She used to take a bus to the kosher butcher a couple of miles away, instead of the one on the next block from the place she worked, so her boss wouldn't see her go in.

At any rate, there could be something like divorce and remarriage, or a Catholic/Protestant marriage (which, correct me if I'm wrong, but the RC church would consider living in sin under some circumstances).

Anyway, if something like that were in the background, they may have deliberately made efforts to trace them difficult.

It seems curious that we know so much about the other victims, including Liz Stride, who wasn't even born in England, and seems given to, umm, fictionalizing her story as well. I realize that MJK probably made up a lot of the stories she told about herself, and that complicates things, but since the brother was found, it wasn't too complicated.

So I wonder if maybe the whole family didn't want to be found, for some reason.

[Phil H]

We can tie ourselves in knots over Kelly's background.

What you say might be true, Rivkah, but we have no evidence for any of it.

The options seem to me to be:

a) Mary told the truth to Barnett and others and they related it as accurately as possible - we have just not been lucky in picking up mary's tracks;

b) our lack of success indicates she lied or falsfied some or all of her backstory and lied to her associates - in which case we don't know what is true/what made up and our chanes of stumbling on her (without additional evidence) are slim;

c) Mary and some of her associates were somehow involved in a cover-up, Fenian or something else, and the mystery enigma relates to that. So Barnett's and others testimony might not be reliable.

My own view is that parts of the story are true - Flemming (known to visit her), Morgan Stone (however spelled, doesn't some of the right sort of name show up in the street registers?) the brother who may or many not have been seen, the letters from home - seem to point to some reliable/checkable information she gave out. But I think she embroidered her story to add mystique and sophistication to her character.

If some chance survival of an official record turns up one day we might get a lead, assuming the police had success in tracing her family. Johnto/John Too/Ianto seems to be the best lead because the Guards are an organisation that maintains excellent records. If we cannot find him there then -in my view - that may be proof that something odd is going on.

Phil