Johnto - an idea

[DGB]

Was recently watching Would I Lie to You on the Beeb. Welsh comedian Rhod Gilbert was on, and mentioned having a hamster called Ianto.

This of course set me thinking. A quick search shows:

Ianto (pronounced Yan-toh) is the pet form of the name Ifan, one of the Welsh forms of John.

I wondered if Mary's brother - if not born in Wales - could've been called John and when in Wales was given the diminutive by the locals. And it stuck.

[lynn cates]

been there, done that

Hello DGB. Good thinking.

Unfortunately, some top researchers have tried most of the variants--but with little success.

To date, NONE of Barnett's story of "MJK" has been confirmed.

Cheers.
LC

[DGB]

Thanks Lynn

I know a range of the best researchers in the field have tried exhaustively to find more background info on Mary.

Even if they hadn't, I don't think the info would've been very helpful - given that John is probably the worst name to search historical records for.

However, hopefully it throws something into the pot as to where the odd name of 'Johnto' may have come from.

[Chava]

Quick question to which I should know the answer: did MJK speak with a Welsh or an Irish accent? If she comes up with 'Johnto' as her brother's name whether real or made-up that suggests possibly she may have been a Welsh-speaker. Did she ever go to church or make a confession? I'm beginning to wonder if she was even Irish although I can't see any reason for her to make that one up given the feeling about the Irish that existed then.

[lynn cates]

rumours

Hello Chava. That's a good question.

There was a rumour that she had a slight speech impediment. That, in turn, gave rise to speculation about accent, etc. To date, French, Welsh and Irish have all been suggested. One speculator even had Scots.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

The Truth has long been swallowed by the Corryvreckan.

[Wickerman]

If you take an example of Abberline's handwriting you will see he has a tendency to conflate words together:
- toldme (told me)
- thather (that her)
- formanof (foreman of)
- livedat (lived at)
- shehada (she had a)
- shealso (she also)

The fact that Johnto is written at the extreme edge of the right side of the paper (and, it is squeezed in) suggests to me he had not room for the second 'o' of 'too'.
The words, I think, should be "John too". The second 'o' is reduced to a tail because of no space.

I think the intent was to say, "The father's name was John, the brother was called John too".

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jon,
In absolute agreement with you, that is the obvious interpretation.
The only snag being, the army brother has always been named as Henry who served in the second battalion scot's guards.
Where does the name John derive from?
The Kelly family must have existed , otherwise how was her brother traced , and forwarded Mary's belongings, it would appear that his parents were spared the publicity, and her brother reluctantly became involved.
Regards Richard.

[RivkahChaya]

There was a rumour that she [MJK] had a slight speech impediment. That, in turn, gave rise to speculation about accent, etc. To date, French, Welsh and Irish have all been suggested. One speculator even had Scots.

Cheers.
LC

Supposedly, she wore false front teeth that didn't fit well. That'll make you lisp, because air escapes. It's not a genuine speech impediment, in that you just need a properly fitting bridge, not speech therapy. I don't know how she lost the teeth (assuming this is true), but she may have had normal speech before.

If you take an example of Abberline's handwriting you will see he has a tendency to conflate words together:
[examples deleted-- see post]

The fact that Johnto is written at the extreme edge of the right side of the paper (and, it is squeezed in) suggests to me he had not room for the second 'o' of 'too'.
The words, I think, should be "John too". The second 'o' is reduced to a tail because of no space.

I think the intent was to say, "The father's name was John, the brother was called John too".

I think that you are right, especially because I doubt MJK would say "John-to"; the Welsh name, IIRC the BBC How Green was My Valley, is pronounced "Yahn-toh," and in Wales spelled "Ianto." If MJK meant the Welsh name, I think Abberline would have written "Ianto," or would have written something phonetic, like "Yantoe," if he wasn't familiar with the name.

If the father and brother really were both named John, it's possible the brother was actually called "John-2," rather than John junior, for some reason. Maybe he was a stepson of the father. Or maybe he was the second John, jr. born into the family, because the first one died. People call their kids weird stuff. The name "Bathsheba" in the bible (a better phonetic spelling is "Batsheva") just means "Daughter #7," as though after six girls, and n sons, the parents couldn't be bothered to come up with any more names.

There was a Catholic family in my neighborhood where all the girls (there were five, I think) were named Mary. They were Mary Anne, Mary Catherine, Mary Theresa, etc., and so we called them Annie, Kate, Terry, but all the Jewish kids still thought it was weird, because we don't name people after anyone living.

I wondered if Mary's brother - if not born in Wales - could've been called John and when in Wales was given the diminutive by the locals. And it stuck.

It seems more likely that if this is the brother who joined the Scot's Guards, he'd be in the Scot's Guards with a Welsh accent, and so they'd called him what is essentially the Welsh version of "Johnny." His name wouldn't even need to be "John" to begin with. When I was in the US Army, there was a guy in my training unit who was Irish, from Dublin, who had joined the US Army as a shortcut to US residency-- it's automatic after an honorable discharge, and your time in the military counts as time "in the country" if you want to apply for citizenship. Anyway, a lot of people called him "Irish," which he said he didn't mind. I called him by his name anyway.

I realize it's been said that people have checked EVERY variant spelling, but if "Ianto" really is short for "Ifan," I wonder if people have checked "Ivan." If at any point an American did the recording, I think the American would hear "Ifan" as "Ivan," even if the first vowel were "ee." Americans get addressed to Russians named "Ivan," pronounced "ee-VAHN," with that pronunciation, and still right off begin calling them "EYE-van."

[RivkahChaya]

Hi Jon,
In absolute agreement with you, that is the obvious interpretation.
The only snag being, the army brother has always been named as Henry who served in the second battalion scot's guards.
Where does the name John derive from?
The Kelly family must have existed , otherwise how was her brother traced , and forwarded Mary's belongings, it would appear that his parents were spared the publicity, and her brother reluctantly became involved.
Regards Richard.

Maybe she had more than one brother in the Guards? one who'd been in for a while, and one who had joined recently. Depending on where they were stationed when she died, it might have been much more practical to send the younger one her things.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,
In absolute agreement with you, that is the obvious interpretation.
The only snag being, the army brother has always been named as Henry who served in the second battalion scot's guards.
Where does the name John derive from?

Hello Richard.
The statement does acknowledge that the brother's name was Henry, "but known as John too", which might suggest his name was Henry John Kelly?

The Kelly family must have existed , otherwise how was her brother traced , and forwarded Mary's belongings, it would appear that his parents were spared the publicity, and her brother reluctantly became involved.
Regards Richard.

We know a good number of researchers have pursued what they think is every possibility, yet all come up empty. Something is wrong somewhere, we just haven't identified the 'what'.

The easiest route is to say "its all lies". Who knows..

[lynn cates]

wisdom

Hello Jon.

"We know a good number of researchers have pursued what they think is every possibility, yet all come up empty. Something is wrong somewhere, we just haven't identified the 'what'.

The easiest route is to say "its all lies"."

For one who has not lived even a single lifetime, you're a wise man, Van Helsing.

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

OK, here's a question for Brits: what does the phrase "called [first name]" mean to you?

In the US (or, at any rate, the part I'm from), saying that a person is "called" something, rather than named something, sounds a little odd, and might imply that whatever he was commonly called wasn't actually his name. "We call him Nick, even though his name is actually 'Peter Nikos,' because his father is 'John Peter, jr.' and has been called 'Pete' all his life." We wouldn't say "He's called 'John,'" if his first name is, in fact, "John." We'd say "He's named 'John,'" regardless of whether he's called John, Johnny, Jack, JJ, or something else entirely.

About the only time we talk about "calling" someone their given name is when we ask what a new baby will be called, but I think that's an older usage, which is fading.

Of course, whatever people said in the 1888s may not be what people say now, but still, to me, saying that MJK's brother is called, rather than named John, implies that John isn't his given name.

[Wickerman]

OK, here's a question for Brits: what does the phrase "called [first name]" mean to you?

In the US (or, at any rate, the part I'm from), saying that a person is "called" something, rather than named something, sounds a little odd, and might imply that whatever he was commonly called wasn't actually his name. "We call him Nick, even though his name is actually 'Peter Nikos,' because his father is 'John Peter, jr.' and has been called 'Pete' all his life." We wouldn't say "He's called 'John,'" if his first name is, in fact, "John." We'd say "He's named 'John,'" regardless of whether he's called John, Johnny, Jack, JJ, or something else entirely.

About the only time we talk about "calling" someone their given name is when we ask what a new baby will be called, but I think that's an older usage, which is fading.

Of course, whatever people said in the 1888s may not be what people say now, but still, to me, saying that MJK's brother is called, rather than named John, implies that John isn't his given name.

I understand your question but let me quote the passage exactly, the word "called" is not used.

"...she had a brother named Henry serving in the 2nd Battn Scots Guards, and known amongst his comrads as Johnto- ....."

There you have it, spelling mistakes and all.

Being known by his buddies in the Army might mean the name was given to him by them. Maybe they nicknamed him John because of something he did, or someone he looked like, or acted like? Or, perhaps he just didn't like the name Henry.

[RivkahChaya]

I understand your question but let me quote the passage exactly, the word "called" is not used.

"...she had a brother named Henry serving in the 2nd Battn Scots Guards, and known amongst his comrads as Johnto- ....."

There you have it, spelling mistakes and all.

Being known by his buddies in the Army might mean the name was given to him by them. Maybe they nicknamed him John because of something he did, or someone he looked like, or acted like? Or, perhaps he just didn't like the name Henry.

Again, I don't know how that comes across to Brits, but that comes across as intended to imply that John, or Johnto, whichever, was not his given name.

I've been in the military, and so have some earlier-generation members of my family, but again, I don't know much about things British; anyway, it's not typical to call people by their first name; everyone I served with got called by last name. My husband had the same experience. When I was in basic training, we did have three people with the same last name, so one of them ended up with a nickname, and another ended up being called by her first name by everyone. She was the only person everyone called by her first name.

So, I would think the most likely thing people would call him would be "Kelly." I doubt they'd call him Henry, even if that was his first name.

Is it possible that Abberline just made a mistake? Maybe someone told him MJK's brother was named John, like his father, and Abberline recorded it, but this was wrong. It wouldn't necessarily have affected his getting the package of her things, because it probably would have been addressed to her brother by his rank and last name, possibly without using his first name, and even if it did come addressed to "PVT (I don't know British ranks) John Kelly," with the unit and everything else correct, and a return address of Scotland Yard, who else would they give the package to? Mary Kelly's brother would no doubt be expecting it.