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The Legend Of Mary Jane Kelly

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  • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    Interesting. In the previous article (post #172), Mr. Rees appears to have been spoken to and to verify that MJK was in his service, and that he even saw her in London and spoke with her. The article in 172 indicates he had been previously married, and that MJK was in his service at that time. The article in #175, says that Mrs. Rees only moved to Swansea 3 years ago, but surely that must be the current Mrs. Rees (I don't know if he divorced or was widowed; if the latter then it must be the wrong Mrs. Rees who has been spoken to in the article shown in post 175).

    By the sounds of it, MJK might have been a bit on the wild side in Swansea, but I don't get the impression it was to such an extent as she would have come to the police's attention.

    Anyway, I've not delved into archival research, nor am I skilled in geneology, so I'm only giving my impression of how those two articles pair up together. It strikes me, though, either the first article is entirely fabricated by the reporter, or the reporter tracked down Mr. Rees who verified MJK as being MJK, and that she indeed worked for him at some point. I'm not sure the 2nd article is really enough to conclude that the lead in post #172 is a dead end. Is there more behind that decision?

    - Jeff
    I'm glad you wrote this, my first take was 'are we talking about two different Mr Rees here?', something did not quite jive. I thought I'd get back to it later. Yes, something is either garbled or there has been a misunderstanding by reporters.
    It might be worth a second look, though I do recall Deb's commenting on the Rees case several years ago, that it didn't lead anywhere, I just can't recall why.
    Regards, Jon S.

    Comment


    • [QUOTE=Wickerman;n761941]
      Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post

      Martyn, I hope you realize I only saw the opportunity to make a joke....




      It's actually not new, it is there in writing in the 1887 Coroner's Act.



      It was a minimum standard.
      I took it lightly. I wasn't being sarky and I meant it in complimentary way.
      Also I realized I should be more au fait with the details with the coroner inquests. I found them now under main menu item "Official Documents".

      I'll take a look a 1887 Coroner's Act. Thanks for the heads up.

      Martyn
      Last edited by mpriestnall; 07-08-2021, 01:54 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

        This was published in the Western Mail, 13 Nov.





        If I recall, this lead turned out to be a dead end.
        So from this can we assume that MJK was calling herself MJK when she was still living in Cardiff and not a moniker she adopted when she arrived in London. Proof that MJK was her real name?
        Best Regards,

        Tristan

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Losmandris View Post

          So from this can we assume that MJK was calling herself MJK when she was still living in Cardiff and not a moniker she adopted when she arrived in London. Proof that MJK was her real name?
          If you believe that this individual is the Millers Court victim, then yes. If you don't think it's her (like me) then we have to keep on looking. That said, I suspect the Rees article has more to it than has been published, what we read doesn't quite sit right.
          By the way, I don't think anyone suggested she adopted the name after arriving in London, she could have done that earlier.
          The way I look at that aspect is, we have a woman born in Ireland, moved with her family to Wales where she grew up.
          Left home but moved to another Welsh city and fell into the bad life, then moved to London. So the earliest time for a name-change could occur after leaving home, but before arriving in London

          Even though I feel reasonably sure the victim's real name was not MJK, I'm still interested in anyone named Mary Jane Kelly, Mary Ann Kelly or just Mary Kelly.
          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • [QUOTE=mpriestnall;n761950]
            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

            I took it lightly. I wasn't being sarky and I meant it in complimentary way.
            Also I realized I should be more au fait with the details with the coroner inquests. I found them now under main menu item "Official Documents".

            I'll take a look a 1887 Coroner's Act. Thanks for the heads up.

            Martyn
            Hi,
            The Coroner's Act can be found online, for a look at how it was or was not put into practice I'd recommend a read of David Barrats article found here: https://www.orsam.co.uk/thebiginquiry.htm

            He's specifically referring to the Stride inquest, but there's lots of useful info there.
            Thems the Vagaries.....

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

              I'm glad you wrote this, my first take was 'are we talking about two different Mr Rees here?', something did not quite jive. I thought I'd get back to it later. Yes, something is either garbled or there has been a misunderstanding by reporters.
              It might be worth a second look, though I do recall Deb's commenting on the Rees case several years ago, that it didn't lead anywhere, I just can't recall why.
              Thanks Wickerman. I'm not surprised to hear that Deb has had a look at this, and would be very interested in her conclusions. I know her work to be very solid and sound. That first article, though, really either has to be filled with blatent fabrications on someone's part (either Mr. Ree's or the reporter's), or as you say the MJK isn't the same MJK of Dorest Street. The first article indicates that the MJK of Mr. Ree's left his service and went to Swansea, so Mr. Ree's at that time appears to have lived elsewhere when MJK was with him. So the 2nd article, which indicates that Mrs. Rees only moved to Swansea 3 years ago is irrelevant, given that the first indicates MJK had left them and herself "went to Swansea". Seems a coincidence that they too eventually moved to Swansea, but regardless, by the time they did MJK was no longer with them. So, if there's any chance of tracking that MJK, given she's not been located in Swansea, the other place to look would be whereever Mr. Rees lived prior to that move.

              Still, with all the names given, and the occupation of MJK's father, I'm sure Deb would have been able to track that family down, and perhaps that has led to the conclusion that the information is simply unreliable?

              It does, however, feel to me that it is the best starting point and that there has to be something of truth in there, garbled as it may be. Perhaps worth revisiting even. It's such an information rich article that it could just be we're missing the one bit that unravels the whole thing. As you say, though, the whole thing might mean that we're talking two different MJK's here, but even to know that would be useful as this is such a sparkly it needs to be identified as either a beacon or will-o-the-wisp. Perhaps it already has and I'm just getting overly excited.

              - Jeff

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              • I might have something.......
                "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

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                • Originally posted by erobitha View Post
                  I might have something.......
                  Hopefully you can get a prescription for it? Sorry, couldn't resist, looking forward to anything you may have.

                  - Jeff

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by erobitha View Post
                    I might have something.......
                    Click image for larger version

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                    "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                    - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                    Comment


                    • Click image for larger version

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ID:	762002
                      "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                      - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                      Comment


                      • Click image for larger version

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ID:	762005
                        "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                        - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                        Comment


                        • Click image for larger version

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ID:	762007
                          "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                          - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                          Comment


                          • A few thoughts on the above:
                            1) Sweeney is also a common Irish surname. Mr Rees may have known her as Sweeney or mistook the commonness of the surname. The indication he said he knew her father would suggest as being unlikely
                            2) But it did unearth a peculiar find. A Mary (albeit listed as being on the young side) in 1871 and 1881as suggesting she would have been just 17 in 1888
                            3) What I found strange was the father was called John. There was an incident involving iron. He also had two sons, one called Henry and another called John
                            4) Weirdly Mary drops off the census in 1891 but John senior acquires a new wife "Magaret" who is just 22

                            In the end all just odd coincidences once again and no viable leads.
                            "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                            - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                            Comment


                            • Carrying on down the Swansea Marine Store Dealer route, another weird coincidence appeared.

                              A Thomas Retekin was arrested for fencing stolen Iron (seems to be a thing with Swansea Marine Store dealers). He had a daughter. Her name?

                              Mary Jane born 1860. She appears on the 1910 census as still living with him. Another dead end.
                              "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                              - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by erobitha View Post
                                Carrying on down the Swansea Marine Store Dealer route, another weird coincidence appeared.

                                A Thomas Retekin was arrested for fencing stolen Iron (seems to be a thing with Swansea Marine Store dealers). He had a daughter. Her name?

                                Mary Jane born 1860. She appears on the 1910 census as still living with him. Another dead end.
                                They're not dead ends, they're routes pursued and eliminated. Keep at it, who knows what's out there? She is, if only we could pin it down.
                                Thems the Vagaries.....

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