Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Legend Of Mary Jane Kelly

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    Again conjecture on your part

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

    Says the man who suggests two clearly bogus press reports contradict Debra’s detailed genealogical research.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

      Hi Debs.

      This is what I thought, too, but as strange as it may appear, I now think the report I posted is most likely a red-herring, and it's nothing other than a strange coincidence. The report states she married a fellow Phoenix Park informer named Smith and went with him to Australia, and, as you have shown, Alice Carroll did indeed marry a Frederick Smith in 1887

      The trouble is, the Phoenix Park informer who was hustled down to Australia was not Frederick Smith, but Joseph Smith. He was a laborer inside Dublin Castle, had joined the Irish Invincibles, played a small role in the assassinations, and then turned state's evidence. Further, it was reported that the informer Joseph Smith eventually returned to the UK and died in London in 1885, so he couldn't be Frederick James Smith. (see below).

      There is a long and detailed article on the Phoenix Park informers sailing to Australia in 1883, published in The Flag of Ireland, and, rather suggestively, it states nothing about Alice Carroll being among the passengers on that voyage.

      I suppose it is possible that Joseph Smith the informer and Frederick Smith the soldier were somehow related, and Alice Carroll met one through the other, but I haven't looked into it.

      Personally, I have no doubt you found the same Alice Smith, and she died in the asylum. I'm more interested in some of the oddities of the news accounts surrounding her, and what they might tell us about misinformation in the press when dealing with anything to do with Irish Nationalism. I wonder if the claims that Alice was married to a policeman was just local gossip, a way of insinuating that she was 'in' with the police. The William Kelly she was supposedly associated with was simply the local beat constable, as far as I can tell.

      Here's one report of Joseph Smith's death in 1885

      Click image for larger version Name:	Joseph Smith 1885.JPG Views:	0 Size:	64.2 KB ID:	760531

      By the way, I noticed that there was another Carroll family living in Eccles Lane in the early 1880s, but it was No. 13 Upper Eccles Lane, and I've found no evidence there was any 'Alice' in the immediate family. Maybe a relative, or just a name coincidence?




      Click image for larger version Name:	Sarah Carroll 1880.JPG Views:	0 Size:	50.2 KB ID:	760532
      Thanks RJ
      I did trace Alice's sister Mary Jane Carroll who 'married' a man named Fanning. At least one Irish newspaper had Alice's fiance as a policeman named Fanning. I had at one time wondered if he was the policeman and the press had become mixed up between the girls. The couple had a son in Dublin and then emigrated to New York where their descendants were in the NYPD.
      The girl at 12 Upper Eccles Lane is interesting. There were close relatives in the same area, as I mention, Alice herself had a cousin named Aliced Carroll (I believe it was their grandmother's name but forget now) who was a couple of years older or younger.

      I do recall, but can't find it now, that Alice gave her exact age in her sworn testimony (x years and x months, or x months from her x birthday, something like that) it would be useful if anyone can find that again as Alice was born 28 April 1866 and this could then be compared. A more precise age other than about 17 was definitely given in one source at least.

      I will have a look at the Meiklejohn case in 84 concerning him getting to Alice and see what extra information there is on the family. The security surrounding Alice was apparently very lax despite her claiming her life had been threatened many times, as Meiklejohn showed.
      ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

      I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

      Comment


      • #63
        Interesting discussion here and a lot has cropped up that coincides with some of my research. Take this for what you will, but I have sources for all of this if anyone is interested in them. Not sure where to start so I'll throw out pieces based on what is being discussed here.

        -Lord Edward Cavendish (brother of Frederick Cavendish, murdered in Phoenix Park) was a client of Charles Hammond and implicated in the Cleveland Street Scandal.

        -John Meiklejohn was armed with warrants to run down and arrest those involved in the Dublin Castle Scandal of 1884. Those that fled to London. This scandal was very similar to the Cleveland Street Scandal.

        -As Debs pointed out, Thomas Collins Brodie (brother of self professed murderer of Alice McKenzie, William Wallace Brodie) at one time lived a few streets away from Eccles Lane.

        -On September 6, 1888, William Wallace Brodie sailed as a third class passenger from England to South Africa aboard the Athenian. He had just been released from prison and had secured lodging at No. 2, Harvey's Buildings. If that address sounds familiar, it is. It's the same address he went to when he returned from South Africa in 1889 a few days before the Alice McKenzie murder. Also living at that same address was John Arnold of Pinchin torso fame.

        -Coincidentally, also on board the Athenian on that trip, leaving for a 5 month vacation to visit a clergy brother near the Bulfontein Mines in South Africa, was Lady Cavendish (Frederick Cavendish's widow) and her brother Spencer Lytlleton.

        -Brodie secured work at the Bulfontein Mines.

        -I have mentioned to Debs in the past that maybe William Wallace Brodie was the brother of MJK? He was discharged with bad character from the 2nd Battalion of the Scots Guards in 1876 under the alias William Pigott. I have no further evidence to substantiate the claim.

        All just food for thought.

        Side Note: I did not see Brodie's name on the list of passengers included in the paper. Lady Cavendish and her brother were on the list. I should probably order the Ship manifest for the Athenian but I took the word of the detective in the case at the time (forgot his name) that said he checked the records and found them to be accurate with what Brodie stated





        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

          The second entry shows the occupation as a carman not a cab driver!

          www.trevormarriott.co.uk
          They're the same man with a wife of exactly the same name Mary White! At one time he was a carman or cabman and at some point before 1901 he obviously bought cab of his own to become a cab owner. The father of Alice Crroll was a cabman according to Alice's sworn testimony
          ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

          I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by jerryd View Post
            Interesting discussion here and a lot has cropped up that coincides with some of my research. Take this for what you will, but I have sources for all of this if anyone is interested in them. Not sure where to start so I'll throw out pieces based on what is being discussed here.

            -Lord Edward Cavendish (brother of Frederick Cavendish, murdered in Phoenix Park) was a client of Charles Hammond and implicated in the Cleveland Street Scandal.

            -John Meiklejohn was armed with warrants to run down and arrest those involved in the Dublin Castle Scandal of 1884. Those that fled to London. This scandal was very similar to the Cleveland Street Scandal.

            -As Debs pointed out, Thomas Collins Brodie (brother of self professed murderer of Alice McKenzie, William Wallace Brodie) at one time lived a few streets away from Eccles Lane.

            -On September 6, 1888, William Wallace Brodie sailed as a third class passenger from England to South Africa aboard the Athenian. He had just been released from prison and had secured lodging at No. 2, Harvey's Buildings. If that address sounds familiar, it is. It's the same address he went to when he returned from South Africa in 1889 a few days before the Alice McKenzie murder. Also living at that same address was John Arnold of Pinchin torso fame.

            -Coincidentally, also on board the Athenian on that trip, leaving for a 5 month vacation to visit a clergy brother near the Bulfontein Mines in South Africa, was Lady Cavendish (Frederick Cavendish's widow) and her brother Spencer Lytlleton.

            -Brodie secured work at the Bulfontein Mines.

            -I have mentioned to Debs in the past that maybe William Wallace Brodie was the brother of MJK? He was discharged with bad character from the 2nd Battalion of the Scots Guards in 1876 under the alias William Pigott. I have no further evidence to substantiate the claim.

            All just food for thought.

            Side Note: I did not see Brodie's name on the list of passengers included in the paper. Lady Cavendish and her brother were on the list. I should probably order the Ship manifest for the Athenian but I took the word of the detective in the case at the time (forgot his name) that said he checked the records and found them to be accurate with what Brodie stated




            Thanks Jerry, some interesting coincidences there.
            ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

            I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

              There are so many ambiguites that it is a case of no one is going to say you are totally wrong, but in my opinion it falls short of conclusivley saying you are right.

              Have you checked to ascertain if the Mcarthys who owned the shop near to Eccles Lane were related to the Millers Court McCarthys? that might be a game changer?

              www.trevormarriott.co.uk
              The onus is on you to prove the ID wrong.

              I haven't checked because I believe it is modern conjecture. Anyone familiar with genealogical records would know just how common the name McCarthy was in East London alone.
              ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

              I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                The father of Alice Crroll was a cabman according to Alice's sworn testimony
                She also testified to being born & raised in Lower Eccles Lane, and being the oldest child, with three sisters and two small brothers, which aligns with the family tree.

                The only discrepancy I noticed is that the Fannings have Alice with five sisters, but it looks like two of them were never traced further than the baptismal records, so it's possible they may have died before the 1883 trial.

                I can't see there being any real doubt that this is the same woman.








                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Debra A View Post

                  The onus is on you to prove the ID wrong

                  There has been enough posted on this thread to cast a doubt as previoulsy stated, and where is Alices sworn testimony?

                  I haven't checked because I believe it is modern conjecture. Anyone familiar with genealogical records would know just how common the name McCarthy was in East London alone.
                  and the name is no more common in Ireland than the names Kelly, and Carroll but a direct connection between the two McCarthys would be a game changer.

                  www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                  Last edited by Trevor Marriott; 06-20-2021, 10:14 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

                    She also testified to being born & raised in Lower Eccles Lane, and being the oldest child, with three sisters and two small brothers, which aligns with the family tree.

                    The only discrepancy I noticed is that the Fannings have Alice with five sisters, but it looks like two of them were never traced further than the baptismal records, so it's possible they may have died before the 1883 trial.

                    I can't see there being any real doubt that this is the same woman.







                    Thanks RJ
                    I appreciate yours and Gary's considered feedback on this,
                    ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                    I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                      Anyone familiar with genealogical records would know just how common the name McCarthy was in East London alone.
                      Even "John McCarthy."

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Trevor Marriott
                        There has been enough posted on this thread to cast a doubt as previoulsy stated, and where is Alices sworn testimony?
                        Alice's sworn testimony was reproduced in many sources, for example
                        Report of The Trials at The Dublin Commission Court, April and May, 1883, of The Prisoners Charged With The Phœnix Park Murder, The Attempt to Murder Mr. Field, and The Conspiracy to Murder

                        Author: Justice O'BrienDate: 1883
                        Publisher: n.p. (Dublin)



                        Attached Files
                        ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                        I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

                          Even "John McCarthy."
                          Even "John McCarthy"
                          But the more capable researchers are probably able to discern between those using Catholic Church records, newspapers etc.
                          Last edited by Debra A; 06-20-2021, 11:17 PM.
                          ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                          I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

                            Even "John McCarthy."
                            The addition of ‘Esq’ is helpful in that it narrows the field to prominent local businessmen.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by mpriestnall View Post
                              Legend:
                              "A spy's claimed background or biography, usually supported by documents and memorized details".

                              Kelly, though not a spy, was given a "legend" by the authorities through the vehicle of Joseph Barnett's testimony
                              at Kelly's inquest. The reason for the legend was to hide the connection between Kelly and Astrakhan Man and Jack the Ripper.

                              The following points do not prove that Kelly's backstory was a legend but are nevertheless are all consistent with such a legend:

                              1. Numerous people have searched for Kelly for decades using the Irish/Welsh backstory and all have failed to find any trace of Kelly. This fact alone should throw doubt on the veracity of her backstory.

                              2. All her early backstory originates from only one source, namely Joe Barnett.

                              I find it particularly incredible that the dramatic death of her husband was not separately reported by any of Kelly's Miller's Court cohorts. It would be natural to expect Kelly to share some of her history with her neighbours. She would have plenty of opportunity to do so, since she had been living in Miller's Court since the early spring. However no one, apart from Barnett, reported this most dramatic event.

                              3. The surnames for maiden name (Kelly) and married name (Davies) are two of the most common surnames found in Ireland and Wales. These names would make it difficult for any contemporary effort to disprove her fake identity.

                              4. Kelly's birth place Limerick could have been chosen for her because of it's ambiguity, namely it's not clear if it refers to the town or county, thus again making difficult to disprove. Kelly would have reported to Barnett her town rather than the county as her place of birth, yet there was no contemporaneous confirmation that Kelly had any connection to Limerick town.

                              Martyn
                              Astrakhan man may very well have been Joseph Isaacs and a red herring inserted into the case by Hutchinson. If there was a fake backstory to protect a suspect, could it not just have easily have been to protect Blotchy?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by seanr View Post

                                Astrakhan man may very well have been Joseph Isaacs and a red herring inserted into the case by Hutchinson. If there was a fake backstory to protect a suspect, could it not just have easily have been to protect Blotchy?
                                Yes, definitely.

                                My take though is bit more complicated in that I believe Blotchy (JTR) and Astrakhan were working together and therefore they were both being protected.

                                Kelly's fake backstory, foreshortened Inquest, missing witnesses (E.g. Hutchinson) were all part of that protection.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X