Mary Jane Kelly from Tottenham - further details

[Simon Wood]

Hi Chris,

Great stuff. Thanks for posting all the certificates.

In 1881 the 107th Regiment of Foot was amalgamated into the Royal Sussex Regiment, which Inspector Chandler visited at Farnborough in 1888 regarding the envelope found in the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street.

Intriguing.

Regards,

Simon

[Chris Scott]

Thanks Simon for the comments
The last document I have is the death certificate of Alfred Joel. He is the man who knew the Kelly family in Tottenham and was the source of the story of the Millers Court connection. He died by suicide in 1895.

Death of Alfred Joel
1895

Registration District: Caistor
County: Lincoln
When and Where Died: 28 November 1895 Workshop of Messrs Nightingale of Convamore Road, Grimsby
Name: Alfred Joel
Sex: Male
Age: 38 years
Occupation: Joiner (foreman) late of 343 Convamore Road, Grimsby
Cause of Death: Suicide by hanging whilst of unsound mind
Informant: Certificate received from Coroner for the Borough of Grimbsy. Inquest held 29 November 1895
When registered: 30 November 1895

[Chris Scott]

In 1891 the Joels are listed as follows:
3 Collins Yard, Grimsby, Lincolnshire
Head: Alfred Joel aged 36 born Butterwick, Lincs - Joiner
Wife: Sarah Joel aged 32 born Tottenham
Children:
Florence aged 7
Annie aged 5
William A aged 3
Fred aged 1
All children born in Grimsby

[Chris Scott]

Sarah Joel died in 1894 as follows:
1894 Quarter 2
Sarah Ann Joel aged 34
Gainsborough, Lincolnshire

In the 1901 census, the oldest child Annie was a servant at Cricklade in Wiltshire, and two of the children are listed as orphans:
The Seamans and General Orphan Asylum, Hull
Frederick Joel (Orphan) aged 11 born Grimsby
Percy Joel (Orphan) aged 8 born Grimsby
The other two children were living with an uncle in Grimbsy but under a different surname:
9 Haven Street, Grimsby
Head: William White aged 49 born Butterwick, Lincs
Wife: Betsy White aged 49 born Butterwick
Niece: Florence Todd aged 17 born Grimsby - Domsetic servant
Nephew: William A Todd aged 12 born Grimsby - Errand boy

[perrymason]

Hello all,

This is really an informative thread, thanks all for the data. I do have a question. From memory, so forgive if I err....is the story we have of Mary Kelly one that included an older brother John, who in effect raised the rest after the father passed on? I noticed there was a John, but 2 years younger, on the stats earlier. And only 4 brothers listed.

Just noticing for all.

Cheers.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Michael
I don't know the story you mention about an older brother bringing up the family. In fact Barnett's account of Kelly's father coming to look for Mary suggests that he was certainly still alive at the time she lived in Pennington Road. The only brother mentioned by name in the orthodox account is Henry.
The nickname of this brother was allegedly Johnto, so possibly he was a Henry John, but that is only speculation
All the best
Chris

[perrymason]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for that. Im thinking Ive either crossed a story with another, or perhaps it was something in (edit)Tony Williams book. Ill check back....then check back here.

Thanks Chris....and really fine research as usual.

Cheers.

[Chris Scott]

I have recently found this brief article about the suicide of Alfred Joel, the man who claimed to know Mary Kelly and the source of the story which concerns this thread.
This is from the Bristol Mercury of 29 November 1895
One odd thing - this report says that Joel left a widow and large family, but his wife Sarah had died in the prevous year, 1894

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Chris!

"The deceased was between 80 and 40..."

A pretty large scale, isn't it?

All the best
Jukka

[Chris Scott]

Hi Jukka
I think that reads between 30 and 40!
He was in fact 38
Chris

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Chris!

So, my optician just told me, that I am even more far-sighted...

All the best
Jukka

[Dr.Nemo]

What is interesting about the Mary Jane Kelly murder, was it was indoors, and any proof of identity hidden..why? If she tried to blackmail, she would be dead. I think if she had information, important enough to hide her it might have something to do with her Irish background, perhaps something to do with the fact the Irish bombed Scotland yard in 1888. She was an asset, thus they kept her alive. Although I don't think she stayed in England, she would have been spotted, most woman return home to feel safe, so perhaps she went back to Ireland? Another point of interest is the scale of the "supposed Kelly murder" does not add up, if memory serves me correct, the broken window in relationship with the size of the interior of the room, is incorrect scale to the outside of the room, where the outside of the broken window is. A conjourer once wrote, use a big "move" to conceil a "smaller" move.

[Phil Carter]

Dr Nemo,

Welcome to the boards!

Well spotted indeed.

best wishes

Phil

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Dr Nemo!

An interesting point indeed!

Very little is known about her before entering the East End too!

But; if one thinks "their way", her drinking was a problem, wasn't it?!

Meaning; she could have talked too much... Despite she could control herself enough not to reveal her real life-story!

All the best
Jukka

[packers stem]

This is a fascinating possibility and excellent research.If Chris was supplied with any documents by his informant then you have to presume that when this Mary Kelly handed them to her family ,it must have been for a reason,i mean you don't give friends copies of certificates etc unless you think they may need them some day to 'prove a point'.I may have misread things and chris may have aquired all the relevant documents himself just from info provided in which case this paragraph is irrelevant.
The bit about the sussex regiment is interesting as they have 'orange' relating nicknames presumably making it unlikely that a catholic would join(maybe someone will correct me on that and provide a list of irish catholics from the sussex regiment).Mary Kelly NOT being a catholic would make perfect sense in terms of her being an informant,irish people(southern) are generally presumed catholic unless stating otherwise and she could easily have gained the trust of Fenian sympathisers in whitechapel.To also have a sussex regiment link to annie chapman as simon pointed out!!
So we could have a sussex regiment link for chapman and kelly and the mission link for eddowes and kelly..hmmm.
I've also been wondering about the nickname 'johnto'.I doubt john thomas as others hav suggested as this would likely be 'johnthom' ...unless it was John Thomas o'(something)?O'leary,O'brien,O'mally etc.
But could it be possible that the TO is from his birth place??
There is a town about 30 miles from Limerick written TUOGH.Now not being irish i'm unsure as to the pronunciation but it could be toe,it could equally be tuck,tug,toog but i'm sure someone on here would know .
I'm also interested in Dr.Nemo's post about the window.Are there photo's of the broken window from the inside and out.I'm positive that to reach far enough in to unlatch the door you would have to go right in to shoulder length and to do this you would have to remove all the glass from the paticular pane.Surely if this was the only way to open the door you would do this immediately to avoid slicing your arm every time?