Mary Jane Kelly from Tottenham - further details

[Supe]

Debs,

Good point and the Presbyterian marriage struck me as well as a dischordant note. Clearly, that alone does not invaildate the story and there are a myriad of explanations, but it does give pause for concern. Had Mary Jane Kelly's background story had her coming from, say Belfast rather than Limerick, it might be easier to understand.

As it is, we often fail to understand how different it was just 120 years ago. It was a more religious millieu (even for non-practioners) and also more sectarian. Even if Mary Jane Kelly never saw the inside of a churcxh once she arrived in London there are of course dozens of ways a day that she may have indicated to her lovers, friends and associates that her upbringing had been Roman Catholic--and that certainly seems to have been the assumption of those who knew her.

And as you say, why not change her name if she is going into "exile" so to speak? Not as if she would have needed a new National Health card.

Don.

[perrymason]

On a point Debs was addressing, Im fairly sure that in 1888 you could not be buried in a Catholic Cemetary unless you were Roman Catholic. I believe its still a sticky issue today in less urban spots.

Best regards.

[Chava]

I"m sorry but I can't buy this story at all. If Kelly had managed to avoid the Ripper and escape from Whitechapel, I see no reason on earth she would own up to having been the 'unfortunate' believed murdered in Millers Court. If she took the time and trouble to move away, find a man and marry him, live a normal life, why would she say anything to anyone? Especially if another woman was clearly murdered in her place. The police would have dearly loved to talk to her if they found her.

I think it's possible that this was a game of Broken Telephone, where around 1900 a woman called Mary Jane Kelly who lived at Tottenham said something like 'it always struck me that there was another woman killed by the Whitechapel Murderer who was born where I was born and had the same name as me!' Over the years this became 'Mary Jane Kelly escaped the Ripper and came to live respectably here in Tottenham.' Yes, it's a coincidence that they had the same name, but investigations are full of coincidences. Years ago the Green River Task Force were convinced they knew who the killer was. A recently deceased man had been watched for ages. They were sure he was the killer. After he died they even found a secret room in the basement of his house that would have been perfect to take his victims. He drove a truck very similar to one that had victims had been seen entering. And it wasn't the killer.

[diana]

Nun's Attest?

As to Mary being Catholic, isn't there some record of her having accepted charity from a group of nuns at one time? If they got to know her at all, they would have been able to tell if she had the Catholic background, and could have attested to that before her burial.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

I agree with you, who think this could-have-been to be a relatively weak one.

Yes, Diana, MJK is told to have lived in a kind of homeless shelter of the time, run by catholic nuns, in 1884.

Besides that, mr. McCarthy and mr. Barnett told her to be a catholic. Since both of them had Irish origins, I presume, that they could have made a difference between a protestant and a catholic.

My impression is, that at the time the borderline between the two groups was even stronger those days.

All the best
Jukka

[Chris Scott]

Hi guys
Many thanks for all the feedback and the points raised
I have spoken to the lady who brought this story to my attention and have raised as many of the points raised as i could
She is meeting with an older relative shortly and has promised to phone me with any further info
I will keep you posted
Chris

[Chris George]

Debs,

Good point and the Presbyterian marriage struck me as well as a dischordant note. Clearly, that alone does not invaildate the story and there are a myriad of explanations, but it does give pause for concern. Had Mary Jane Kelly's background story had her coming from, say Belfast rather than Limerick, it might be easier to understand.

Hi Don

Of course I am sure you know that the idea that the north of Ireland is Protestant and the south is Catholic is a sweeping generalisation. When I was in Northern Ireland, I met plenty of Catholics as well as Protestants. Poet William Butler Yeats, from Sligo in what is now the Republic of Ireland, was Protestant, as was martyred Irish patriotic hero Wolfe Tone (1763-1798) and a number of the rebels of 1916.

Chris

[Mike Covell]

Hi Guys,
Chris, you mentioned that Alfred Joel was born in Hull and during the 1881 Census he was listed as being 24?
Thus giving him a birthdate of 1857.

I will have a look down here, see what I can dig up!

[Mike Covell]

1881 census
Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 1387; Folio: 54; Page: 31; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341338.
Name: Alfred Joel
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah
Gender: Male
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Tottenham
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address: Commerce Rd
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Carpenter

Registration district: Edmonton
Sub registration district: Tottenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 33

Alfred Joel, 24, Carpenter,
Sarah Joel, 21, As wife (but crossed out)


will search the Hull Trade Directories, Burgess Rolls, Polling Books etc on next visit into town.

[Supe]

Chris G.,

Yes, I am quite conversant with the religious demographics of Ireland (Northern and Republic of)--some of my doctoral research even took me into that tangle. I simply observed that a Protestant Kelly from Belfast was easier to inderstand than one from Limerick. That's all.

Don.

[belinda]

This is really fascinating I hope you hear more from your source soon.

The thing that strikes me is our Mary was a pretty heavy drinker.It makes me wonder if she could have given that up to become this Mary

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Belinda!

Then the following thing occurs;

Based on, what the people talked about her, she could have been intelligent enough to become this Mary.

But could she have had enough will-power to do so?

All the best
Jukka

[Blackkat]

Very interesting post to say the least. It's eerily close to the post that I made Under the MJK section here, entitled MJK Aliases. Something close to that title, it's on the second page of threads now. There are quite a few similarities in the this person's story, and the one that my family shared with me. Curious.

[Carrotty Nell]

This is all very interesting and I love a bit of intrigue as much as anyone. But I cannot help feeling that what we have here is a bit of an 'Anastasia'.

The theory that the woman on the bed in Miller's Court was not MJK is not new. I believe it goes back to at least Farson's time. But whenever it appears it throws up more problems than it solves. We have to come up with an explanation for why Barnett and McCarthy misidentified the body, why no-one reported the real victim missing.

Much as I hate to be a killjoy I cannot help the feeling that this lady took advantage of having the name Mary Jane Kelly to start a bit of gossip and intrigue.

[Blackkat]

That's what I was thinking too. I wonder if that was a rumor in 1888 - 1889 and maybe someone tried to gain some attention by taking on the name. My family told me that our family member was indeed killed, but then again it was just a story nothing to base it on at this time.

You're right it does raise more questions - and causes more questions instead of shedding light on anything.