was Kelly's death premeditated

[RivkahChaya]

We should not dismiss this as coincidental , as it goes against mathematical odds.

I'm not quite sure where you get your numbers, but we don't, for one thing, know how many other letters were received by people in Whitechapel or Spitalfields a week before Kelly was murdered, that have some content which could be construed as referring to an event nearby? Probably a lot. If we limit it to anonymous, misaddressed, misdelivered, or otherwise mysterious mail, probably significantly fewer, but still, what did the letter say? I had to find it on jtrforums.com. Maybe it's on casebook, but I couldn't find it here.

Here it is (Ipswich Journal, 2 Nov 1888).

Anyway, the content is vague, doesn't refer directly to Mary Kelly, and threatens Norwich women, not someone who lives nearby the return address.

Now, if the letter had said "A week from now, one of my close neighbors gets it," or "Irish women keeping me awake with their night work won't be doing so much longer," that'd be an entirely different thing.

[martin wilson]

Major conspiracy?
Let's chuck a few twigs on the fire of the burnt out Royal conspiracy.

Madame Kelly was the founder in 1878 of the infamous Le Chabenaise, sponsored perhaps aptly by the Jockey Club De Paris.

Bertie, Prince of Wales was a frequenter of said establishment.

Marie was a 'code' name for a prostitute who specialised in, or only offered oral sex.

The French Connection, the first two statements can be verified by a quick internet search.
The third statement, infuriatingly, I cannot quote a source because I can't find it again, definitely read it though.

All the best.

[Wickerman]

There is a sentence in East End 1888 which might be of note, I can only paraphrase at this point but, in essence ...apparently the neighbourhood did not stir much before noon. The morning, at least from daybreak until noon, was the best time to catch anyone at home.

Especially, one might assume, prostitutes who have been 'toiling' all night?

Regards, Jon S.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Indeed I believe it is true to say, that McCarthy obtained rents when ever he could.
I would suggest that he would not have tolerated open prostitution by any of the courts residents, especially with his wife and son close by, indeed I understand that most of the residents of Millers court, had at the very least common law marriages.
Why did the landlord tolerate Kelly's arrears?
The word ''compassion'' seems to describe his actions, he and his wife were well aware of the danger on the streets, and would not have evicted a young woman. without a partner.
The morning of the 9th, is full of red herrings,it is believed that at the time Bowyer knocked on Kelly's door, Mrs McCarthy and son were knocking on doors for rent, so why was Bowyer making a visit?
Reports suggest that certain residents, reported to McCarthy that morning that Kelly's blinds were still drawn , and she would not answer the door, so it is conceivable that this was the reason why his manservant was sent to investigate, as room 13 was exempt from collection.
However this was not mentioned by McCarthy in his statement.
I have always believed the youth was McCarthy's son, we should not forget that at the very least the lad was interviewed at Millers court[[according to Dew, not only did the youth arrive at the police station, but he was questioned at the scene].
Regards Richard.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Jon

That may well be the origin of the quote I recall second-hand - thanks! However, the piece I recall seemed to be a tad more explicit...so I'll keep looking just in case!

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Dave.

Is this what you were looking for?

" For these rooms rents are supposed to be paid daily, but of course they will sometimes get a good deal in arrear."
Daily News, 10 Nov. 1888.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_news/18881110.html

Kelly may have had special considerations, or, maybe Bowyer knocked on her door every morning?

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Richard

That's a big "if." But allowing for the sake of argument that Maxwell was right, why would Jack plan to kill Kelly on rent day?

I'm far from convinced by Maxwell's story, but didn't I read somewhere an account of "rents" in some cases being collected daily? (Not being of a Swansonesque nature I recall marking the page of the book in question with a "post-it" which appears to have become detatched - Curses!)...which might back up the oft-expressed idea that McCarthy took commission from the working girls...and which just might explain the 29/- arrears and his tolerance of same....

All the best

Dave

[Barnaby]

Many coincidences rear up on Casebook, but surely anyone who can predict a Ripper murder , and send a correspondence to the police[ albeit out of area] stating an address just yards away from the forthcoming bloodbath, has to have
major psychic abilities or indeed the killer himself[ or accomplice ].
We should not dismiss this as coincidental , as it goes against mathematical odds.

Highly improbable things happen all the time; that's the nature of probability. There is life on Earth, there are daily lottery winners, hell we might even figure out who was JTR one of these days.

[Robert]

Hi Richard

That's a big "if." But allowing for the sake of argument that Maxwell was right, why would Jack plan to kill Kelly on rent day? Would he want McCarthy, or Mrs McCarthy, or Bowyer peering through the window while he was engaged on his gruesome business?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Robert,
He would not need one if Maxwell was right, and the police who at least initially believed the murder took place in daylight.
Regards Richard.

[Robert]

What kind of bloke plans a murder, but doesn't bring a light?

[Sally]

I don't think its impossible that it was premeditated - because I entertain the idea that the killer 'knew' his victims in the sense that he may have had some familiarity with them: perhaps he had used their services before, perhaps he knew of them/knew them by sight.

It would certainly have made it easier for him if his victims had known him to some extent because they would have felt safer in his company.

In Kelly's case, it seems at least possible that she was targetted. I don't think it need be a spurned lover to work - although, who knows?

[Phil H]

Letters were probably sent about every day, so some must appear relevent but are simply coincidences.

IMHO the ripper was not a letter writer.

as to premeditation - I can swing two ways:

a) if it was a crime of passion then I think Barnett, Fleming or whomever called and killed her in a fit od rage (no premeditation); but

b) if Barnett killed her because he was jealous, or resented her letting other women use the troom, then some premeditation, maybe just a few hours, is (in my judgement) possible.

Phil H

[Nemo]

Quite possible Richard

To me, the letter itself threatening murders in Yarmouth marks it out as a hoax

I think it likely that Dorset St being mentioned in connection with other victims gave someone the idea to pen such a letter, and there is a good possibility the writer lived in Dorset St or was familiar with it

Chris Scott and Debra Arif did a good job at JtR forums in tracing the people who lived at number 14

Chris described the residents as mostly Jewish

This in a street where I have seen reference to Jews not venturing for fear of attack

That might be why an attempt to draw attention to No.14 was made

[richardnunweek]

Hello Nemo,
Absolutely correct.
Which would give even more credence to the killer being familiar with that street, what I am suggesting is that if the killer possibly resided at number 14, it would have been directly opposite the shed, and Millers court, and only a few doors away from Crossingham's where Annie stayed.
We could suggest that the letter simply was a hoax , and the writer simply made up an address from that street, or knew that number 14, was opposite in location, to the shed.
But what a good guess that the next murder was also opposite the address penned?
Regards Richard.