Mary Jane was murdered between 09.00 and 10.30 am

[Michael W Richards]

I dont believe the idea that she mistook someone for Mary Jane Kelly is the real problem, its that Maxwell, like Hutchinson, claimed to converse with Mary during those last 12 hours before she is found. Claimed to be known by her by given name. Maxwell claimed that Mary called her "Corrie". They both claimed to be known and on friendly terms with Mary.

Hutchinsons claim to have been friendly with her seems in contrast with the length of time he took to come forward to "help" in the investigation into her particularly brutal murder. And Maxwell, also unproven to have actually known Mary, is warned at the Inquest that her evidence has no support within the known facts of the investigation. Perhaps due to the medical estimate as to the rough TOD. Thing there is that the stomach contents and the stages of digestion of food are very telling as to when the person no longer processed food...because the systems cease to work shortly after death.

[Abby Normal]

The problem is, looks like Maxwell was describing a totally different person. As you said, Mary Jane was a common name, often used as an alias by unfortunates in such an overcrowded area. Maybe one of Mary's friends who intended to borrow some of her clothes (just like Catherine Pickett wanted to ask her for her shawl) and knew of the window trick entered Room 13 after knocking on the door and getting no reply, and the horror she saw made her so sick she threw up in the gutter. Perhaps if this woman existed, she fleed the scene as fast as she could fearing she would be next and that's why she was never seen again. I don't know, it may be a little too far-fetched. The Norfolk letter makes me somehow suspicious of Maxwell, actually.

fascinating. but no

[Marie Jeanette Davies]

There are some discrepancies between descriptions, and there are a number of people who believe the most likely explanation for Maxwell's sighting is that Maxwell met someone she confused with MJK. This is, of course, entirely possible, although there are reasons to doubt this was the case.

a) Maxwell addressed the woman she spoke to by name - a common name granted.
b) Maxwell described the clothes Kelly was wearing, which matched those found in MJK's room.
c) Maxwell knew MJK had recently split from her live in lover.

The problem is, looks like Maxwell was describing a totally different person. As you said, Mary Jane was a common name, often used as an alias by unfortunates in such an overcrowded area. Maybe one of Mary's friends who intended to borrow some of her clothes (just like Catherine Pickett wanted to ask her for her shawl) and knew of the window trick entered Room 13 after knocking on the door and getting no reply, and the horror she saw made her so sick she threw up in the gutter. Perhaps if this woman existed, she fleed the scene as fast as she could fearing she would be next and that's why she was never seen again. I don't know, it may be a little too far-fetched. The Norfolk letter makes me somehow suspicious of Maxwell, actually.

[Marie Jeanette Davies]

Is your name really Marie Jeanette Davies, or are you playing a role?

Maybe it is, maybe not .

[Marie Jeanette Davies]

No mention of the missing teeth or the plumpness either.

Yes, exactly.

[etenguy]

Well, the description of Mary Jane Kelly given by Mrs. Maxwell didn't quite match the one given by those who were closest to her. I seem to remember that she described Mary as short and dark, whereas apparently she was tall and she had a fair complexion and either blonde or red hair.

There are some discrepancies between descriptions, and there are a number of people who believe the most likely explanation for Maxwell's sighting is that Maxwell met someone she confused with MJK. This is, of course, entirely possible, although there are reasons to doubt this was the case.

a) Maxwell addressed the woman she spoke to by name - a common name granted.
b) Maxwell described the clothes Kelly was wearing, which matched those found in MJK's room.
c) Maxwell knew MJK had recently split from her live in lover.

[MrBarnett]

Well, the description of Mary Jane Kelly given by Mrs. Maxwell didn't quite match the one given by those who were closest to her. I seem to remember that she described Mary as short and dark, whereas apparently she was tall and she had a fair complexion and either blonde or red hair.

Is your name really Marie Jeanette Davies, or are you playing a role?

[MrBarnett]

Well, the description of Mary Jane Kelly given by Mrs. Maxwell didn't quite match the one given by those who were closest to her. I seem to remember that she described Mary as short and dark, whereas apparently she was tall and she had a fair complexion and either blonde or red hair.

No mention of the missing teeth or the plumpness either.

[Marie Jeanette Davies]

Maxwell was a neighbour and she knew that MJK had recently split from her boyfriend and had been working as an unfortunate since then - I think it unlikely it was a different MJK she had confused with her neighbour, unless they too were in those same circumstances.

Well, the description of Mary Jane Kelly given by Mrs. Maxwell didn't quite match the one given by those who were closest to her. I seem to remember that she described Mary as short and dark, whereas apparently she was tall and she had a fair complexion and either blonde or red hair.

[caz]

All valid points, Caz!

If I'm honest, I hadn't really considered that none of the locals had contemplated a daylight / indoor murderer at that point.

In this scenario, there must have been a moments risk when he actually exited the property though.

Perhaps not in terms of him attracting suspicion or being immediately apprehended, more once the murder was known and someone who had seen him leaving had put two and two together

I wonder if this would indicate that he was in no way known in that locale?

I'm just thinking that it would be safer to be "unknown male seen exiting 13 millers Court" than "Bob, the barman from the Ten Bells seen exiting millers Court".

Idle musings only!

Cheers Ms D.

I'm sure you are right about it being safer to be "unknown male" to any witnesses after the event, regardless of the time MJK was killed.

As with the other murders, if he could put just a couple of streets between himself and the crime scene before the body was even discovered, he was pretty much home and dry - especially if nobody would have known him by name or sight anyway, if they had seen him engaging with a victim, or close to a previous murder location.

Love,

Caz
X

[Losmandris]

It is possible, though that would mean Maxwell didn't see her MJK again after the murder to realise her mistake.

Maybe she did? Would she report back to the police a few days or weeks later if she saw 'her' MJK again? Probably not, because she may of felt that it would make her look a bit stupid or a liar or that she may have thought she would get into trouble.

[Wickerman]

Yes Thanks Joshua.

Interesting that the Saturday morning press continue reports that are consistent with Kelly being murdered after 9:00 am. Maxwell's story is just enforces this belief.
So up to Saturday we have Lewis claiming he saw Kelly after 8:00 in the morning, a woman of 'doubtful' reputation claims to have seen Kelly going home with another female about 5:30 am, another witness also saw Kelly drinking in the Britannia with a man around 10:00, and now Maxwell' story joins the confusion.

For over 24 hours then, the only stories that were in the press were those that suggested Kelly had been murdered sometime late Friday morning.
There was nothing to suggest she may have been killed earlier, not even those stories of hearing a cry of "murder". Nothing of this nature was being reported on Friday evening or Saturday morning.

What was happening behind the scene's was the post mortem at Shoreditch mortuary. While the public were engrossed with published stories of Kelly's apparent late morning murder, the doctors at Shoreditch were entertaining an alternate scenario.

The Saturday afternoon papers continued with the 'late' murder belief. Except, that in the afternoon press we now see Mrs Kennedy's story and her claim to hear the cry of "murder" after 3:30 am., along with similar stories from other tenants of Millers Court.
Still, by the end of the day it was commonly understood Kelly had died sometime after 9:00 am Friday morning.

In Lloyds Weekly, on Sunday, we see the first suggestion that Kelly may have died some hours earlier than popular belief. We read: "...in all probability the crime was committed as earlier as two or three o'clock in the morning."

Reynolds News continue their coverage with the belief of a late morning murder.

Then we have the Monday morning press which continues with the commonly held belief, yet also provides a hint said to be sourced from the medical men that the murder may have occurred several hours previous, without specifying a time.
Therefore, by the time of the inquest the predominant opinion among the public, thanks to the consistency of press media was that Mary Kelly had been murdered as late as 9:00-10:00 am Friday morning, but that recent medical opinion not yet of widespread public knowledge suggested a time several hours earlier.

Is it really any wonder why Hutchinson did not think to come forward until Monday?

[Joshua Rogan]

Strange though, it's Morris Lewis's account that is in the press first on Friday. Evening papers across the country were repeating Lewis's account.
We don't see Maxwell's story until Saturday.

Maxwell had been working overnight and so went to bed after her sighting of Kelly.
It's possible that she wasn't aware of the murder until she awoke, too late for her story to get into the evening press.

[Joshua Rogan]

Well sunrise would have been at 07:09 on that day, so probably not dark enough to require a lantern an hour or more later.

[Wickerman]

and btw i dissmiss lewis-seems more than likely hes just am attention getter parrotting maxwells story.

Strange though, it's Morris Lewis's account that is in the press first on Friday. Evening papers across the country were repeating Lewis's account.
We don't see Maxwell's story until Saturday.