Room 13 Miller's Court

[Fisherman]

Whoops; In my previous post I forgot to mention that Mary´s windows faced the north. Not unimportant to the subject, I should think

The best!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hi Smon!

Our posts crossed, it seems!

I´m afraid I don´t understand what shadow you are talking about. The one shadow at Mary´s door that I find useful, is the one at the top of the right hand wall at the side of the door. There, under the piece of wall protruding over the door, is a triangle-formed shadow that, if you follow its outlines, point steeply up into the sky. To me, that suggests that the picture could not have been taken that far off from noon.

Which is "your shadow", Simon? If you are correct, the picture could not have been taken at the approximate time that the door was forced, the way I believe.

Also, if you look at other objects, I don´t find long shadows cast to the left, as there would have been if the sun was further down.

The best, Simon!
Fisherman

[perrymason]

Great stuff Mr Evans, much obliged for those images of which at least one Id never seen before.

The Larger window closest to the corner and the courtyard I believe had many smaller individual panes as seen in the close-ups in the other shots, was it 3 rows of 5 panes, or 5 rows of three....but I believe it is supposed to the the single pane at the bottom.. and our far right, of the picture. So Barnett would not be reaching from the middle of that window, and by all accounts, it wasnt hard to do.

I think assuming that Joe and Mary left the door "on" the latch when out makes sense, he is with her when they would come in to an unlocked room, so no fears. But I dont think Mary Jane left Thursday night with it unlocked.

Maria has moved out now a few days, Joe has been gone a week......and so a woman being walked home by a surly looking but physically capable man doesnt neccesarily mean a trick taken home. Elizabeth Prater still puts furniture in front of her own door in her room...and Mary was said to be fearful of the Ripper tales, and is for the first time that Fall...living absolutely alone.

I have to look at those photographs some more....many thanks Stewart.

Best regards all.

[Chris Scott]

This is what I make of the broken pane cleaned up (the image that is, not the window!)

[Sam Flynn]

The passageway into Millers Court ran south-north. The door to Room 13 faced west. The windows faced north. The sun is to the south. Look at the angle of the shadow cast on the wall to the right of the door. With a little experimentation (I used an anglepoise lamp to approximate the sun's position) you will discover that the photo could only have been taken towards the end of the afternoon, with the sun into the west.

Indeed, Simon - good call. However, the problem is that the further west the sun went the lower it gets in the sky. After 2PM the sun would then have around 19° above the horizon and sinking. Even at its zenith that day, the sun wouldn't have crept much higher than 21°. Check the shadow cast on the bricks at the far side of the porch/doorway:



Surely that's too steep an angle for such a low-lying sun? The same appears to be true of the shadow of the smaller window-frame on the curtains:



Am I going mad, or would these shadows require the sun to have been much higher in the sky than the 9th November 1888 would allow?

[perrymason]

Perhaps the upper pane was broken during the fight, and the lower of necessity due to the lost key?

Cheers.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fisherman,

This is the shadow I was talking about—running at an angle from the edge of the archway down past the right hand top corner of the door arch.



It can only be cast with the sun well into the west.

Hi Sam,

Yes, the shadow in the corner of the doorway completely contradicts the results of the experiment in my super-secret underground research laboratory.

Oh why is nothing in this damn case straightforward? Whoever put this mystery together was a genius.

Regards,

Simon

[Sam Flynn]

Perhaps the upper pane was broken during the fight, and the lower of necessity due to the lost key?

A good suggestion, Mike, although I believe it's on record that both panes were broken during the same fight.

And I think I know what crashed through the bottom pane. By careful enhancement, I can finally solve one of the enduring mysteries of Miller's Court:

[JSchmidt]

After fiddling around like 10 minutes with GIMP, I'm pretty sure that either a) my eyes are really worse than I thought or b) there is no hole in the bottom pane. Looks more like someone removed grime from it to see through, there are no ragged but angular shapes like in the upper pane.

[perrymason]

A good suggestion, Mike, although I believe it's on record that both panes were broken during the same fight.

And I think I know what crashed through the bottom pane. By careful enhancement, I can finally solve one of the enduring mysteries of Miller's Court:

[ATTACH]1473[/ATTACH]

Ok.....You had me laughing out loud Sam. Gotta fly...Moms a Birthday girl today.

Cheers Gareth.

[Stephen Thomas]

There's a contemporary illustration showing just the bottom pane broken.

Prater lived at the front of the house over 'the shed', not above Kelly.

[Fisherman]

Simon, your pic does not come through on my computer! Sam´s did, however, and the shadow he is talking about is the same one that I meant - that shaded triangle shows an outline that points to the sun being rather high up in the sky.


The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Simon, your pic does not come through on my computer! Sam´s did, however, and the shadow he is talking about is the same one that I meant - that shaded triangle shows an outline that points to the sun being rather high up in the sky.

...which I don't think it could have been on 9th November 1888, Fish - late Spring or Summer, perhaps, but not late Autumn/early Winter surely?

[Celesta]

Hi Mitch,

I should point out that first floor back would be second floor back in America. I:E Kelly's room was ground floor back so Elizabeth Roberts was murdered in the room above.

Hi Celesta,

Police boundaries wouldn't have been an issue as Dorset Street was always 'H Division', The City Police would not have been involved in Elizabeth Roberts or Kitty Ronans murders. The reason they would been at Millers Court for Kelly's murder would be because of there involvement with Catherine Eddowes.
The Inquest were all held in the correct locations as far as I am aware.

Rob

Thanks, Rob. In regards to the boundaries, that's what I thought. I was sure that I read that there was a to-do about where the inquest was held, but I'm probably having a memory lacuna.

I wonder, could it have been possible that the MET also had a copy of this photo, but it was destroyed in the Blitz?

As for the shadows, would a long view of the flat be more useful? There don't seem to be many strong shadows. It looks late in the day on a rather gloomy day.

Best,

Celesta

[Sam Flynn]

Prater lived at the front of the house over 'the shed', not above Kelly.

There's compelling evidence to that effect, Stephen