Room 13 Miller's Court

[Stewart P Evans]

Wriggling

Thanks for that, Stewart - your observation in respect of the lodging-house is apposite and certainly works. I'd only observe in respect of the inquest transcript that "a" and "thuh" ("the") might easily be confused and overlooked - which cuts both ways, of course (i.e. the papers may have misheard "the room" for "a room"). However, please forgive me if I believe that there remain reasonable grounds for doubt, which I still do.

Gareth I do believe that you are wriggling. Prater's evidence clearly indicated the rear of the lodging house that looks into Miller's Court and her statement clearly says she occupied the room over where deceased lived.

[George Hutchinson]

Debate is always good if it gives rise to new evidence (not theories... they make me yawn) but I cannot really see anything thus far in this thread that is open to serious reappraisal.

Prater not only said she lived above MJK, but (correct me if I'm wrong, Stewart) that she could actually see chinks of light through the floorboards from MJKs room because there were only floorboards dividing the upper and lower rooms.

The pan by the window has been discussed many times. The rational conclusion is that Joseph Martin took MJK1/2 through the broken window pane and then, when processed and the pan placed out of harm's way, the wider image of the back of #13 was taken.

I do realise it seems unusual that images from the jurisdiction of the Met may turn up at Snow Hill in the City, but having established that the photos of MJK ARE MJK, then - strange or not - we have to accept the likelihood that the photo of #13 was taken at the same time. Sure, there's a small possibility that it relates to a later crime but it is highly unlikely.

No reason to think anything new is going to be discovered here, but always good to see a deeper contrast of the broken window panes.

I vainly await the appearance of a certain feline at that upper window.

PHILIP

[Celesta]

I would tend to agree, Tom, were it not for a nagging feeling I've got that the light just doesn't seem right for that time of year and those weather conditions. Perhaps Rob Clack or another of our splendid resident snappers can help soothe my savage breast?

Sam, I see what is bothering you. The shadow on the bricks, to the right of the door, is wider and deeper at the top, than it is lower down. If the sun were lower in the sky, wouldn't that shadow be more uniform along the bricks, and narrower at the top? Still, I think it is a gloomy day and that may be a factor in how the shadows play.

If you look at the water pan, the shadow is a narrow band right next to the pan, rather than being more elongated, as it should if the sun were lower and more westerly. It could be that the photo was taken around early afternoon. Although I would have sworn, earlier today, that it was taken later.

[Rob Clack]

The lodging house at 30 Dorset Street (also owned I believe by McCarthy) was 4 stories tall. The angles a bit tight but could probably just be seen from Millers Court and could probably be seen from the room above Kellys.

Rob

[Stewart P Evans]

Prater

Prater not only said she lived above MJK, but (correct me if I'm wrong, Stewart) that she could actually see chinks of light through the floorboards from MJKs room because there were only floorboards dividing the upper and lower rooms.
PHILIP

Philip, what Prater actually said was, "I went up to my room. On the stairs I could see a glimmer through the partition if there had been a light in the deceaseds room. I might not have noticed it. I did not take particular notice - I could have heard her moving if she had moved."

[Sam Flynn]

Gareth I do believe that you are wriggling. Prater's evidence clearly indicated the rear of the lodging house that looks into Miller's Court and her statement clearly says she occupied the room over where deceased lived.

I'm really not wriggling, Stewart - although your observation about the lodging house detail certainly gives me pause for thought.

I'm not being contrarian for the sake of it, I promise. I just can't dismiss in its entirety the Telegraph article, for the simple reason that it goes into meticulous detail about the layout of the rooms in Miller's Court. It then goes on to say that Prater occupied the "first floor front" (which couldn't be a mishearing of "first floor rear/back", surely), and mentions separately a couple in the room above Kelly who slept through it all.

It may well be a complete dog's breakfast of a news report, but I'm not so sure, especially when other papers used the construct "a room" (see caveat above) or even "almost above" apropos Prater's digs.

All that aside - I'll continue to chew over the lodging-house detail, your explanation of which, as I said, has given me pause.

[Stewart P Evans]

Official Report

I'm really not wriggling, Stewart - although your observation about the lodging house detail certainly gives me pause for thought.
I'm not being contrarian for the sake of it, I promise. I just can't dismiss in its entirety the Telegraph article, for the simple reason that it goes into meticulous detail about the layout of the rooms in Miller's Court. It then goes on to say that Prater occupied the "first floor front" (which couldn't be a mishearing of "first floor rear/back", surely), and mentions separately a couple in the room above Kelly who slept through it all.
It may well be a complete dog's breakfast of a news report, but I'm not so sure, especially when other papers used the construct "a room" (see caveat above) or even "almost above" apropos Prater's digs.
All that aside - I'll continue to chew over the lodging-house detail, your explanation of which, as I said, has given me pause.

You surprise me Gareth. Look through the Telegraph report and see what other errors you can find. I haven't checked, but I believe that the majority of newspapers gave the location of Prater's room as above Kelly's. However, when it comes to an official written inquest statement versus a newspaper report there really should be no contest. You really are struggling when you suggest mis-hearing as an explanation. The written statement is hardly going to be mis-hearing.

[Tom_Wescott]

Sam Flynn rules, but....

Stewart,

You wouldn't be surprised if you'd seen how Sam uses orthography, or whatever it's called, to argue hard evidence all the time. It seems to be his kryptonite and is a short leap to 'he/she must have misheard'. Otherwise, he's a perfectly rational Welshman. Pardon the oxymoron.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Chris Scott]

I though it might be worth posting this description which I am in the process of transcribing for the Press Reports:

[Chris Scott]

I also found this from the same article interesting

[Celesta]

Hi, Celesta.

I hope you can find it, because I side with the early posters on this thread, Monty and JB, who felt that the stretch suggested in these pics would take a long and possibly bloodied arm.

It looks like a long stretch to me, too, Paul, and I think that is why whatever it was caught my attention. I might have been able to reach if the latch was on the right side of the door as you are facing the passage from inside. I thought what I saw might have been that gloomy picture from the new book that is supposed to come out. But when I looked at it just now, the stretch appears even longer in that sketch than in the photo. I'll get the link if it's still there and post it.

http://www.13millerscourt.com/

The above was where it was but it's not there now. You can see a discussion in the thread of the same name of JTR Forums. There was an atmospheric drawing of #13.

[perrymason]

Pardon me for addressing this point a few pages late, it's the issue of the location of Praters room and that window. Sam and I have discussed this particular aspect of that nights testimony, my position being that Elizabeth would not have heard the voice "as from the court", nor would Sarah have heard it as if "at her door", if Elizabeth did not have a courtyard facing window.

I know Sam you've respectfully carved your line in the sand, but hearing from a window in such a location would also be aided by acoustics unavailable in the street, and waves that might pass through the, what was it, 20-25 foot long archway?

Although I still believe that in order for that to have been heard at all, and if the source is Marys room, then Mary Jane's door was likely open.

I think when looking at the size of the window closest to the corner, knowing the cameraman was in the court, and possibly standing on a path that Mary Ann Cox tread a few times that night, her opinions on light or noise in Room 13 become quite relevant. Until approx 3am anyway.

Gareth...no more kettles.

Best regards all.

[Chava]

Just as a matter of interest, when was Millers Court built? Was it contemporary with the rest of Dorset St or was it infill spec build-to-rent that was carved out of gardens etc?

[Stewart P Evans]

Photographs of Miller's Court

The possibility of the existence of other photographs of Miller's Court has been mentioned. It was 15 years ago that I purchased the Littlechild letter, and other letters and material, from Eric Barton, the antiquarian bookdealer at Richmond. Eric was a true survivor of the 'golden age' of dealing and possessed a huge collection of manuscripts, book, photographs and other material.

When I first met Eric in April 1993 at his home I quizzed him about the George R Sims material and what Ripper items there were. He informed me that there were other photographs of Kelly and Miller's Court in the material he had purchased but he was not sure where they were at that time, although he was certain he hadn't sold them. He was in the process of sorting out all the stock from his shop, The Baldur Bookshop, which had recently closed and there were books and manuscript material stacked all over the place. He assured me that should he locate the Kelly photographs he would offer them to me. Sorting through my old files the other day I located my correspondence with Eric. Here is an extract from a letter that I wrote to him at that time -

[Stewart P Evans]

Different Photographs

I remember asking Eric if these photographs of Kelly and Miller's Court were the same ones as those that had appeared in the various Ripper books (copies of which stood on his shelf). He was adamant that some were different and he was sure he still had them.

You may well imagine the temptation to ask him if I could sort through all his material in an effort to find them. Obviously I ask no such thing and I waited patiently to see if he could locate them. We had quite regular correspondence with each other and I did prompt him from time to time about the Kelly material which he was still unable to locate. He did locate an ALS (Autograph Letter Signed) by Sir Melville Macnaghten which I purchased from him.

In a letter of March 1993 he described how he had come to buy the George R Sims material that included the Ripper items -