Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[lynn cates]

Great Expectations

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"The press do seem to have been under the impression that the police did look for her family/friends in Wales . . ."

I daresay.

". . . the family/friends were located . . ."

Hope you are not wagering on this one.

" . . . and the family/friends were expected for the funeral."

By the press? Of course.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

R I C

Hello (again) Jon. Thanks.

"Don't we read that once her murder was reported, didn't cabs full of high officials show up in Dorset St.?"

Indeed. Not to mention two lads from the RIC.

"Wasn't such a turnout, especially of the day of the Lord Mayor's Show, a little extraordinary? I mean, wouldn't these officials have had their morning planned because of the show, yet they took time out to visit a slum in Dorset St.?"

Not so extraordinary if "MJK" turns out to be one of Sir Ed's gang after all. Please to recall that both he and Nick Gosselin had RIC stationed over London as part of their intelligence network. And, yes, Sir Ed was sacked by Lord Salisbury's government at the end of 1886. But Lord Salisbury, with the help of Gosselin, took over a great bit of his organisation.

Cheers.
LC

[RavenDarkendale]

And a quick inquest could have kept people from knowing that the body wasn't MJK. Think of it like this: We know Barnett identified the body as MJK. We know that witnesses claimed to see MJK after that body was certainly dead. What if the coroner's examination of the body raised questions about the identity of the corpse? By closing the inquest quickly, they could dodge these questions getting to the public. Barnett says it Mary, so it is, witnesses to the contrary be damned. In other words, where we are now, with the general opinion being the witness were mistaken on everything from the day, the time, and even to mistaking the person, but Barnett couldn't be mistaken. I believe have been wrong and the witnesses absolutely correct.

God bless

Darkendale

[lynn cates]

possible

Hello Raven. Yes, something like that is possible.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

". . . the family/friends were located . . ."

Hope you are not wagering on this one.

" . . . and the family/friends were expected for the funeral."

By the press? Of course.

The fact that Mr Walton is credited with paying the funeral expenses does suggest that either, the family did not show or, if they did, they were not able to cover the expenses.

The small group around the grave could have been Barnett and a few of her immediate neighbours from Millers Court, but as no press seem to be able to identify them, the possibility exists some family may have turned up.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

possibility

Hello Jon. Yes, there is always that possibility.

But if they had, do you think that the likes of "The Star" would have let it go without mention?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Yes, there is always that possibility.

But if they had, do you think that the likes of "The Star" would have let it go without mention?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

The brief coverage provided by the Star suggests to me that they went to press before the procession reached Shoreditch, so they only report it leaving the mortuary.
From what we do have in the Dailies it appears the press were kept outside the cemetery along with the great unwashed.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Parke

Hello Jon. Thanks. Hard to believe that Ernest Parke could be so easily dissuaded. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Well, if you notice, Ernest Parke has bigger fish to fry, he's on the trail of Jack the Ripper, in the form of a medical man who arrived in London from Birmingham.

The King is dead, Long live the king....


Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Good Citizen

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Well, if the game were not bigger, he'd have seen to it that it became such.

Reminds one of a line from "Citizen Kane"--"You supply the prose; I'll supply the war."

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

And a quick inquest could have kept people from knowing that the body wasn't MJK. Think of it like this: We know Barnett identified the body as MJK. We know that witnesses claimed to see MJK after that body was certainly dead. What if the coroner's examination of the body raised questions about the identity of the corpse? By closing the inquest quickly, they could dodge these questions getting to the public.

I was following, up until you suggested that the police were complicit in not correctly identifying the body. Certainly, the police have an interest in correctly identifying the victim, because doing so helps them identify the killer, and because if they do not correctly identify her, and then she comes strolling, live, into the public view, they have egg on their faces.

It's already been pointed out by another poster that if the idea was just to make MJK disappear, there doesn't need to be an incorrectly identified body. The police have no interest in facilitating an incorrect identification, or covering one up. Wasn't one of the other victims identified by a woman as her sister, but that proved to be wrong? Clearly the police have some diligence in getting things right, as opposed to simply getting the case cleared.

The only real evidence for a misidentification is the morning sightings, and that the witnesses were mistaken, or the coroner got the TOD wrong, are both much simpler explanations than any scenario where MJK is misidentified, particularly since she is never seen again after the body is found, as far as anyone knows.

[lynn cates]

gravity

Hello Rivkah.

"Certainly, the police have an interest in correctly identifying the victim, because doing so helps them identify the killer, and because if they do not correctly identify her, and then she comes strolling, live, into the public view, they have egg on their faces."

Doubtless true of almost all at the Met. Only those who had a connection to Special Branch and Sir Ed's group would have known the gravity of the situation.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

There's really no telling how much time JTR would have needed to do what he did to the body, but the assumption that hours were required is probably wrong.

I think so.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Hmm, but its the measure of the error thats the problem. A professional like Bond might make an error of an hour, or two? - but I think you are suggesting an error of about 8 hours?

Bond said that rigor mortis had begun but was not marked. I read that as meaning that the onset of rigor was recent. Bond also claimed that it commenced after 6 hours. It's actually about 3. Post mortem commenced at 2pm. Time of Death was therefore before 11am - which we already know. I don't see that the medical evidence necessarily conflicts with that of Maxwell & Lewis - but the killer would need to have worked with great haste - which (if MJK was a Ripper victim) we know he was capable of.

Regards, Bridewell.

[RivkahChaya]

Bond said that rigor mortis had begun but was not marked. I read that as meaning that the onset of rigor was recent. Bond also claimed that it commenced after 6 hours. It's actually about 3. Post mortem commenced at 2pm.

People were also not exactly sure what caused it, so, as I've mentioned, the fact that so much muscle tissue was missing from the body may have affected the estimate of rigor. Did they really examine the muscle that was removed and left on the table for rigor?

If you look at the face, the tissue on the chin is twisted upward oddly, which makes me think that rigor in the head and neck was pretty firm, and that's where rigor starts, then progresses downward, in MJK's case, through the area where so much muscle was missing. Heat speeds up rigor, so it's possible that there could have been rigor in the face very soon after death, but never firm rigor in the torso and pelvis, due to the missing tissue.