Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[Wickerman]

Again, we don't know that he didn't come forward. We have to ask ourselves whether we'd know about it if he had? It depends, surely, on whether he went to the press or not.

Quite right, considering the bulk of police files are missing we need to be cautious about jumping to conclusions about who did or did not come forward. One good example is the four suspicious men statements we know about, via Cox we have Blotchy, via Lewis & Kennedy we have the "Britannia-man", and via Bowyer we have "Collars-n-cuffs". Yet the press were told that as many as 53 statements were given concerning suspicious men.

"As many as fifty-three persons have, in all, made statements as to "suspicious men," each of whom was thought to be Mary Janet Kelly's assassin."

We only know who did come forward, not who didn't.

Say Fleming did come forward - what would he have said? If he hadn't seen Kelly for a few weeks, he'd have had nothing to add to the police investigation.

The police may have located Fleming, due to Mrs Phoenix coming forward.

Regards, Jon S.

[Sally]

Quite right, considering the bulk of police files are missing we need to be cautious about jumping to conclusions about who did or did not come forward. One good example is the four suspicious men statements we know about, via Cox we have Blotchy, via Lewis & Kennedy we have the "Britannia-man", and via Bowyer we have "Collars-n-cuffs". Yet the press were told that as many as 53 statements were given concerning suspicious men.

Exactly Jon. We will never know now what those statements entailed, since none of them made it to the press on an individual basis and the original documentation is long gone.

The number of people coming forward gives us some indication of the scale of the investigation and the enormous pressure the police must have been under at the time. It also puts police interest in Hutchinson's statement into context. Obviously, he supplied them with what they were already looking for.

The police may have located Fleming, due to Mrs Phoenix coming forward.

That is true. But in that instance, he may still have offered nothing of immediate relevance to the investigation.

I agree that we must be cautious - we should always be aware that we lack many pieces in the puzzle when we speculate about the case.

[Sally]

The same would be true for Fleming, who was initially in the building trade, and then a dock labourer, or even (perhaps) a costermonger.

Sure - and we can see that it was, since that was where he was staying when he was taken to the infirmary some time later. We don't know his whereabouts when Kelly was killed, however.

Wise enough, Sally, since the only evidence we possess leads us to the Victoria Home. Well, there may be another one (see above), since the groom was no longer a groom in 1888, and the plasterer no more a plasterer.

Well indeed. People did change jobs as the situation demanded. There is no evidence though is there, that Fleming was ever a groom?

Oh, but he did. Not as Fleming, though. Had the ex-fiancé come forward, we would probably know. He was mentioned at the inquest, wasn't he ? We also heard about people that had known Kelly less intimately than he.

I don't see why, unless he had chosen to speak to the press.

One of the things I've always thought odd about Hutchinson's alleged friendship with Kelly is that nobody ever seems to have mentioned him. The fact that he didn't turn up at the inquest, but only when it was all over might indicate that some of those at the inquest did know him - and for whatever reason, he didn't want to be identified. That would work in favour of your argument, perhaps.

[DVV]

Sure - and we can see that it was, since that was where he was staying when he was taken to the infirmary some time later. We don't know his whereabouts when Kelly was killed, however.

We know he was in Whitechapel, at least that's what he said. And the ONLY evidence we have, I repeat, points to the VH.

Well indeed. People did change jobs as the situation demanded. There is no evidence though is there, that Fleming was ever a groom?

No, there is no. But why would there be ?

One of the things I've always thought odd about Hutchinson's alleged friendship with Kelly is that nobody ever seems to have mentioned him. The fact that he didn't turn up at the inquest, but only when it was all over might indicate that some of those at the inquest did know him - and for whatever reason, he didn't want to be identified. That would work in favour of your argument, perhaps.

Exactly, my dear Sally.

[Wickerman]

One of the things I've always thought odd about Hutchinson's alleged friendship with Kelly is that nobody ever seems to have mentioned him.

Her friends at Millers Court only knew her "well enough" from the time she moved in, and she moved in with Barnett. It is not likely she will chat too much about all her past men friends while Barnett is living with her. She apparently mentioned another Joe that's true but this other Joe was someone special. Hutchinson was likely nothing more than just another past customer.

Regards, Jon S.

[DVV]

Hi Jon

Hutchinson was likely nothing more than just another past customer.
Regards, Jon S.

And she would know the name of all her past customers ?

[Sally]

To be fair, that's not the impression he gave, is it? The impression given by Hutchinson is that he knew her, and had done for the past 3 years.

Not just a past customer, I don't think. At least, not if one believes him.

[Tecs]

Tell me...what 'friend" would stand silently by for 4 days after the horrible murder of a friend before coming forward, conspicuously,

A friend who thought "S**t! I was stood talking to her and seen hanging around where she was found murdered. Gulp!"

But then had the guts to voluntarily hand himself in.

I say again, Abberline (no fool, a very experienced officer and undoubtedly aware that Hutch was putting himself in the frame and that aquaintances are the most probable killers) sat down opposite him, looked him in the eye and questioned him for several hours. He came away believing him and we have no right at this distance to casually overrule him and say "nah, he probably got hoodwinked by Hutch."

In doing so we are again falling into the category that I mentioned previously of on some level thinking that the Victorians were stupid. Correct, they were not computer literate, for obvious reasons!, correct they were probably uncultured, correct they wouldn't know how to use a mobile phone, again for obvious reasons but I think that in some way we compare our sophisticated selves with all of our knowledge and technology with their simplicity and make the jump that they were therefore stupid and easily hoodwinked. That is far from the case. Yes they may have still held on to some weird beliefs that would make us laugh today, but these were practical people living very tough lives and they made the best of the conditions that they were in. Witnessess knew who was who and what day of the week it was and Detectives knew when somebody was lying. No, Abberline couldn't go and do a PNC check on Hutch or use his walkie talkie to call for information. But he could sit down, cross examone and analyse a suspect. He'd been doing it for years and if says Hutch was innocent, that will do for me. If somebody thinks that he wasn't, then surely you have to come up with a really, really good reason why?

And regarding his being ditched as a witness, again, that may not be true. He gave his statement, went round with some detectives to see if he could see the man he saw and then what? What would people have him do? The Police knew where he was if they wanted him, but with no more murders or major suspects they had no need to contact him.

I know some people might say, "But they got Lawende when they needed him even years later, why not Hutch?"

Good question. Perhaps they simply couldn't trace Hutch when they needed him. Just because things went quiet doesn't mean that Hutch was abandoned.

Regards,

[RavenDarkendale]

Tell me...what 'friend" would stand silently by for 4 days after the horrible murder of a friend before coming forward, conspicuously, after any people who actually knew Mary Kelly had already appeared in the Inquest that ended that same day? What genuine witness is "discarded" after 3 days?

Hi Michael

Perhaps the sort of friend who knows very well that the body isn't MJK and is giving her time to get out of the country!

[Fleetwood Mac]

To be fair, that's not the impression he gave, is it? The impression given by Hutchinson is that he knew her, and had done for the past 3 years.

Not just a past customer, I don't think. At least, not if one believes him.

I've never been convinced by the "Hutchinson, will you lend me six pence" line. In an era, and area, where money was tight, I can't imagine it was common place for those down on their luck to dole out money to someone unlikely to repay it any time soon. Seems to me that much of Hutchinson's statement is aimed at making the point that they knew one another, which to me suggests he didn't have a clue who she was.

I'm curious as to where Mary bought her food. Presumably she ate not long before she retired to her hovel, and presumably she was drinking in a local pub; so presumably she bought it from a local chandlers. Strange that no witness statement survives with details of serving Mary.

[DVV]

Hi Fleetwood Mac

I'm curious as to where Mary bought her food. Presumably she ate not long before she retired to her hovel, and presumably she was drinking in a local pub; so presumably she bought it from a local chandlers. Strange that no witness statement survives with details of serving Mary.

Strange, indeed. I know I'm completely biased here, but her murderer may well have bought her last meal.

[Tecs]

On the issue of Hutch being described as a friend, we know that the police altered, for the right reasons, certain reports that got into the press. Eg Jewish became foreign.

So it's not difficult is it to imagine Hutch admitting to Abberline that yes, he'd used Mary's services several times and the conversation wasn't actually "can you lend me sixpence" it was " High George, fancy a quick one for sixpence?"

His lack of money would explain why he couldn't take her up on the offer. If so, he probably pleaded with Abberline to keep that out of the papers, obviously not wanting to be named over all England as a user of prostitutes!

Abberline would probably have gone along with this happily and agreed. We know from the Yorkshire Ripper case that police bent over backwards not to associate husbands with prostitutes in front of their wives. They were told in very severe terms not to go around breaking up marriages and therefore treaded very carefully, even to the point of not pursuing men who denied using prostitutes despite being positively sighted repeatedly in red light areas.

If Hutch came clean to Abberline who then allowed the story to be changed slightly (on an unimportant point that made no difference to the overall story) that would explain the "suspect begining" to the story suggested in an earlier post. And it would also explain how Hutch knew Mary quite well, but was not actually a "friend" as such.

Regards,

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon
And she would know the name of all her past customers ?

Some she'll remember, others she'll forget.

To be fair, that's not the impression he gave, is it? The impression given by Hutchinson is that he knew her, and had done for the past 3 years.

Even an infrequent customer could hardly claim he didn't know her. So, any previous customer "knew" her. We don't know what the "3 years" refers to, possibly that was the first time he met her.

We cannot make a mountain out of a molehill with this "friend" business, we don't know what he meant by it.
Mary had women staying with her on occasion (Harvey, etc.), these might be "friends", clearly Hutchinson does not fall into that category. So, does he mean "occasional acquaintance"?, "infrequent customer"?, "friend of a friend"?

Not coming forward immediately might also suggest he was not a close friend, she was just someone he knew on a casual basis.

I think we have another example here of a few who are trying to make something out of nothing.

Regards, Jon S.

[DVV]

Hi Tecs,
Abberline's report was intended for his superior, not the press.

[DVV]

Some she'll remember, others she'll forget.
Regards, Jon S.

Would you give your name to a prostitute ?
Maybe "Jon"... but your name ???