Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[Tecs]

On the issue of Hutch being described as a friend, we know that the police altered, for the right reasons, certain reports that got into the press. Eg Jewish became foreign.

So it's not difficult is it to imagine Hutch admitting to Abberline that yes, he'd used Mary's services several times and the conversation wasn't actually "can you lend me sixpence" it was " High George, fancy a quick one for sixpence?"

His lack of money would explain why he couldn't take her up on the offer. If so, he probably pleaded with Abberline to keep that out of the papers, obviously not wanting to be named over all England as a user of prostitutes!

Abberline would probably have gone along with this happily and agreed. We know from the Yorkshire Ripper case that police bent over backwards not to associate husbands with prostitutes in front of their wives. They were told in very severe terms not to go around breaking up marriages and therefore treaded very carefully, even to the point of not pursuing men who denied using prostitutes despite being positively sighted repeatedly in red light areas.

If Hutch came clean to Abberline who then allowed the story to be changed slightly (on an unimportant point that made no difference to the overall story) that would explain the "suspect begining" to the story suggested in an earlier post. And it would also explain how Hutch knew Mary quite well, but was not actually a "friend" as such.

Regards,

[DVV]

Hi Fleetwood Mac

I'm curious as to where Mary bought her food. Presumably she ate not long before she retired to her hovel, and presumably she was drinking in a local pub; so presumably she bought it from a local chandlers. Strange that no witness statement survives with details of serving Mary.

Strange, indeed. I know I'm completely biased here, but her murderer may well have bought her last meal.

[Fleetwood Mac]

To be fair, that's not the impression he gave, is it? The impression given by Hutchinson is that he knew her, and had done for the past 3 years.

Not just a past customer, I don't think. At least, not if one believes him.

I've never been convinced by the "Hutchinson, will you lend me six pence" line. In an era, and area, where money was tight, I can't imagine it was common place for those down on their luck to dole out money to someone unlikely to repay it any time soon. Seems to me that much of Hutchinson's statement is aimed at making the point that they knew one another, which to me suggests he didn't have a clue who she was.

I'm curious as to where Mary bought her food. Presumably she ate not long before she retired to her hovel, and presumably she was drinking in a local pub; so presumably she bought it from a local chandlers. Strange that no witness statement survives with details of serving Mary.

[RavenDarkendale]

Tell me...what 'friend" would stand silently by for 4 days after the horrible murder of a friend before coming forward, conspicuously, after any people who actually knew Mary Kelly had already appeared in the Inquest that ended that same day? What genuine witness is "discarded" after 3 days?

Hi Michael

Perhaps the sort of friend who knows very well that the body isn't MJK and is giving her time to get out of the country!

[Tecs]

Tell me...what 'friend" would stand silently by for 4 days after the horrible murder of a friend before coming forward, conspicuously,

A friend who thought "S**t! I was stood talking to her and seen hanging around where she was found murdered. Gulp!"

But then had the guts to voluntarily hand himself in.

I say again, Abberline (no fool, a very experienced officer and undoubtedly aware that Hutch was putting himself in the frame and that aquaintances are the most probable killers) sat down opposite him, looked him in the eye and questioned him for several hours. He came away believing him and we have no right at this distance to casually overrule him and say "nah, he probably got hoodwinked by Hutch."

In doing so we are again falling into the category that I mentioned previously of on some level thinking that the Victorians were stupid. Correct, they were not computer literate, for obvious reasons!, correct they were probably uncultured, correct they wouldn't know how to use a mobile phone, again for obvious reasons but I think that in some way we compare our sophisticated selves with all of our knowledge and technology with their simplicity and make the jump that they were therefore stupid and easily hoodwinked. That is far from the case. Yes they may have still held on to some weird beliefs that would make us laugh today, but these were practical people living very tough lives and they made the best of the conditions that they were in. Witnessess knew who was who and what day of the week it was and Detectives knew when somebody was lying. No, Abberline couldn't go and do a PNC check on Hutch or use his walkie talkie to call for information. But he could sit down, cross examone and analyse a suspect. He'd been doing it for years and if says Hutch was innocent, that will do for me. If somebody thinks that he wasn't, then surely you have to come up with a really, really good reason why?

And regarding his being ditched as a witness, again, that may not be true. He gave his statement, went round with some detectives to see if he could see the man he saw and then what? What would people have him do? The Police knew where he was if they wanted him, but with no more murders or major suspects they had no need to contact him.

I know some people might say, "But they got Lawende when they needed him even years later, why not Hutch?"

Good question. Perhaps they simply couldn't trace Hutch when they needed him. Just because things went quiet doesn't mean that Hutch was abandoned.

Regards,

[Sally]

To be fair, that's not the impression he gave, is it? The impression given by Hutchinson is that he knew her, and had done for the past 3 years.

Not just a past customer, I don't think. At least, not if one believes him.

[DVV]

Hi Jon

Hutchinson was likely nothing more than just another past customer.
Regards, Jon S.

And she would know the name of all her past customers ?

[Wickerman]

One of the things I've always thought odd about Hutchinson's alleged friendship with Kelly is that nobody ever seems to have mentioned him.

Her friends at Millers Court only knew her "well enough" from the time she moved in, and she moved in with Barnett. It is not likely she will chat too much about all her past men friends while Barnett is living with her. She apparently mentioned another Joe that's true but this other Joe was someone special. Hutchinson was likely nothing more than just another past customer.

Regards, Jon S.

[DVV]

Sure - and we can see that it was, since that was where he was staying when he was taken to the infirmary some time later. We don't know his whereabouts when Kelly was killed, however.

We know he was in Whitechapel, at least that's what he said. And the ONLY evidence we have, I repeat, points to the VH.

Well indeed. People did change jobs as the situation demanded. There is no evidence though is there, that Fleming was ever a groom?

No, there is no. But why would there be ?

One of the things I've always thought odd about Hutchinson's alleged friendship with Kelly is that nobody ever seems to have mentioned him. The fact that he didn't turn up at the inquest, but only when it was all over might indicate that some of those at the inquest did know him - and for whatever reason, he didn't want to be identified. That would work in favour of your argument, perhaps.

Exactly, my dear Sally.

[Sally]

The same would be true for Fleming, who was initially in the building trade, and then a dock labourer, or even (perhaps) a costermonger.

Sure - and we can see that it was, since that was where he was staying when he was taken to the infirmary some time later. We don't know his whereabouts when Kelly was killed, however.

Wise enough, Sally, since the only evidence we possess leads us to the Victoria Home. Well, there may be another one (see above), since the groom was no longer a groom in 1888, and the plasterer no more a plasterer.

Well indeed. People did change jobs as the situation demanded. There is no evidence though is there, that Fleming was ever a groom?

Oh, but he did. Not as Fleming, though. Had the ex-fiancé come forward, we would probably know. He was mentioned at the inquest, wasn't he ? We also heard about people that had known Kelly less intimately than he.

I don't see why, unless he had chosen to speak to the press.

One of the things I've always thought odd about Hutchinson's alleged friendship with Kelly is that nobody ever seems to have mentioned him. The fact that he didn't turn up at the inquest, but only when it was all over might indicate that some of those at the inquest did know him - and for whatever reason, he didn't want to be identified. That would work in favour of your argument, perhaps.

[Sally]

Quite right, considering the bulk of police files are missing we need to be cautious about jumping to conclusions about who did or did not come forward. One good example is the four suspicious men statements we know about, via Cox we have Blotchy, via Lewis & Kennedy we have the "Britannia-man", and via Bowyer we have "Collars-n-cuffs". Yet the press were told that as many as 53 statements were given concerning suspicious men.

Exactly Jon. We will never know now what those statements entailed, since none of them made it to the press on an individual basis and the original documentation is long gone.

The number of people coming forward gives us some indication of the scale of the investigation and the enormous pressure the police must have been under at the time. It also puts police interest in Hutchinson's statement into context. Obviously, he supplied them with what they were already looking for.

The police may have located Fleming, due to Mrs Phoenix coming forward.

That is true. But in that instance, he may still have offered nothing of immediate relevance to the investigation.

I agree that we must be cautious - we should always be aware that we lack many pieces in the puzzle when we speculate about the case.

[Wickerman]

Again, we don't know that he didn't come forward. We have to ask ourselves whether we'd know about it if he had? It depends, surely, on whether he went to the press or not.

Quite right, considering the bulk of police files are missing we need to be cautious about jumping to conclusions about who did or did not come forward. One good example is the four suspicious men statements we know about, via Cox we have Blotchy, via Lewis & Kennedy we have the "Britannia-man", and via Bowyer we have "Collars-n-cuffs". Yet the press were told that as many as 53 statements were given concerning suspicious men.

"As many as fifty-three persons have, in all, made statements as to "suspicious men," each of whom was thought to be Mary Janet Kelly's assassin."

We only know who did come forward, not who didn't.

Say Fleming did come forward - what would he have said? If he hadn't seen Kelly for a few weeks, he'd have had nothing to add to the police investigation.

The police may have located Fleming, due to Mrs Phoenix coming forward.

Regards, Jon S.

[DVV]

For a working man down on his luck (for whatever reason) the VH was the obvious choice. It was not like other clhs at the time, and carried a respectability that was distinctly absent elsewhere. If Hutchinson was such a man, why not the VH?

The same would be true for Fleming, who was initially in the building trade, and then a dock labourer, or even (perhaps) a costermonger.

I'm certainly not discounting the possibility, but in fact he could have been anywhere when Kelly was killed.

Wise enough, Sally, since the only evidence we possess leads us to the Victoria Home. Well, there may be another one (see above), since the groom was no longer a groom in 1888, and the plasterer no more a plasterer.

Again, we don't know that he didn't come forward.

Oh, but he did. Not as Fleming, though. Had the ex-fiancé come forward, we would probably know. He was mentioned at the inquest, wasn't he ? We also heard about people that had known Kelly less intimately than he.

Say Fleming did come forward - what would he have said?

"Hey, I'm the one who used to ill-use the victim !"

[Sally]

I'm afraid it would be that extraordinary, Sally. To the coincidences already pointed out, you'd have to add Hutch's presence in Dorset Street, on a cold night, at 2.00.

No, I don't think it would. For a working man down on his luck (for whatever reason) the VH was the obvious choice. It was not like other clhs at the time, and carried a respectability that was distinctly absent elsewhere. If Hutchinson was such a man, why not the VH?

Additionally, we don't actually know that Fleming was there at the time - we assume so because that's where he came from to the infirmary - but that was some time later. I'm certainly not discounting the possibility, but in fact he could have been anywhere when Kelly was killed.

If the latter, then what about Fleming ? He would be innocent in that case, so why didn't he come forward ?

Again, we don't know that he didn't come forward. We have to ask ourselves whether we'd know about it if he had? It depends, surely, on whether he went to the press or not. If we didn't have original documentation with respect to Hutchinson's coming forward, and he hadn't gone to the press, we wouldn't know of his existence - and we know from contemporary press reports that a great many people did come forward. Say Fleming did come forward - what would he have said? If he hadn't seen Kelly for a few weeks, he'd have had nothing to add to the police investigation. Hutchinson was a big sensation not because he claimed to have known Kelly, but because he claimed to have been one of the last people to see her alive.

[DVV]

Hi David
Yes, I used to be of the same opinion. Then I learned a bit more about the VH and the sort of people who lodged there, and I changed my mind. Now I don't think it would be that extraordinary.

I'm afraid it would be that extraordinary, Sally. To the coincidences already pointed out, you'd have to add Hutch's presence in Dorset Street, on a cold night, at 2.00.

I don't know the answer to that one. It depends on whether you think he really wanted to help, or whether his motives for coming forward were self-serving. If the latter, there is no reason for him to mention Fleming - it wouldn't have helped him because it would have shifted the press attention - which he obviously courted - elsewhere.

If the latter, then what about Fleming ? He would be innocent in that case, so why didn't he come forward ?

Another possibility is that Fleming did know Hutchinson, who was not at the VH at that time, and used his identity. There are problems with that, too - but I think that Hutchinson was real

I agree, Sally, there are problems (big ones) with this scenario. What makes you think Hutch was real, lastly ?