Limerick, the Key?

[lynn cates]

"'E used sarcasm. Oh, 'e knew all the tricks."

Hello Dave. Right. And she feared Doug's sarcasm.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

agitating ze little grey cells

Hello Colin. Thanks.

"It does seem strange that McCarthy was able to state that the letters for her used to come from "some part of Ireland" but that he couldn't be more precise."

But suppose for a moment that:

1. There were letters.

2. They were from Ireland.

3. They were NOT from family.

What then?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

I was (perhaps obtusely) resisting that suggestion Lynn!

Dave

[Rubyretro]

something along the lines of MJK being the daughter of an itinerant family, so birth not registered, no census entries, that sort of thing. Perhaps they wrote to her, but she couldn't write back.

I freely admit that I haven't time to read back over the whole thread, and so I don't know if this has already been mooted, but wasn't Mary's sister supposed to sell on markets ?

Jobs often run in families -Mary's sister might have started accompanying one or both parents to markets as a child and then branched out on her own for example.

It would depend on what the family were selling, and if they would need to move around to go to specialist 'fairs'...That might explain children born in different places between Ireland, Wales and England.

What about linen, or other finished goods, from Ulster ? Glass ?

Maybe Ulster is the key, and not Limerick at all, if we're looking at import/export for this period ?

A very brief look at Ulster in the 1880s threw up the name 'Kellett'...so maybe the real name wasn't actually Kelly at all, but a close variation ?

I think that the idea that they could write to her, but she couldn't write to them ( because they didn't have a fixed address) is a good one.

I certainly have a couple of very good friends who are tall and ginger blond from Ulster -so the physical type fits.

Those friends actually had Scottish roots (I will have to find out more). There might be something that explains the 'Scots Guards'. A 'tradition' somewhere ?

The name 'Mary' however points to Catholics (but wouldn't that narrow down things in Ulster ? )

Am I remembering wrong, but didn't she say that her Father worked in the Mine ? Maybe the family were split up (maybe her parents were of different religions, and so were the offspring ? )and spread around. Or she didn't have her Father's name. Or his fixed employment was terribly brief.

just thinking aloud...

[caz]

Well, Barnett was either not particularly inquisitive about his live-in lover's childhood, parents and siblings, or she only volunteered the bits that she wanted him to know. She could have given him names and ages for all of them, assuming they existed outside of her imagination and she didn't lose touch with any at an early age. But apparently Barnett didn't ask, or she wasn't that talkative.

Or maybe she chatted away about them so much (when she wasn't singing for her supper) that he turned a deaf'un.

Love,

Caz
X

[Rubyretro]

. She could have given him names and ages for all of them, assuming they existed outside of her imagination and she didn't lose touch with any at an early age. But apparently Barnett didn't ask, or she wasn't that talkative.

Or maybe she chatted away about them so much (when she wasn't singing for her supper) that he turned a deaf'un.

My guess is, Caz, that they did an awful lot of talking...without the telly nor different rooms nor computers nor 'phones to distract them, I bet you that they had more communication than many couples have today.

...but he is quoted on very little/those things wouldn't be seen as important by the Police to beqeath to History/the information was destroyed or lost..

..As you say, he might just have been an uninterested and insensitive man who "turned a deaf'un". I'm not sure that he comes over as that ; There is nothing that I've ever read about him that makes him come over as unsympathetic -to the contrary, in fact.

None of that helps us find her now though..so we have to keep coming up with different ideas

[lynn cates]

simply irresistable

Hello Dave. Ah, but my suggestions may prove irresistable.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

family

Hello Ruby.

"I think that the idea that they could write to her, but she couldn't write to them ( because they didn't have a fixed address) is a good one."

No problem. But would it keep them from here funeral?

"Those friends actually had Scottish roots (I will have to find out more). There might be something that explains the 'Scots Guards'. A 'tradition' somewhere?

Perhaps. But Debs and Colin have already had a go there.

"The name 'Mary' however points to Catholics (but wouldn't that narrow down things in Ulster ?)"

Possibly.

"Am I remembering wrong, but didn't she say that her Father worked in the Mine?"

Ironworks, if I recall properly.

"Maybe the family were split up (maybe her parents were of different religions, and so were the offspring ?) and spread around."

Could be.

"Or she didn't have her Father's name."

Well, Joseph Barnett at inquest said his name was "John Kelly."

Care to try the obvious?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

collusion

Hello Caroline. Or perhaps the story was the result of collusion?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

new idea

Hello (again) Ruby.

"we have to keep coming up with different ideas"

Very well, I'm game.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hello Caroline. Or perhaps the story was the result of collusion?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn. Can I ask? Do you think Barnett would have been part of this collusion or an innocent party who just relayed what had been told to him by MJK?

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=lynn cates;220920]Hello Ruby.

"I think that the idea that they could write to her, but she couldn't write to them ( because they didn't have a fixed address) is a good one."

No problem. But would it keep them from here funeral?

I could imagine that time was short, and communication (without 'phones) difficult between an itinerate family spread out (if that was what they were ???).

That nobody in the Family would want to come forward alone and find themselves a) liable for any cost for the funeral, and especially if they thought that by keeping quiet then other people would pay for it b) they were 'shy' and didn't want press attention c) they had had a fractious relationship with her when she was alive and d) they didn't want the word 'prostitute' associated with themselves e) they had professional activities planned that they didn't want to interrupt f) they were country people that hated the scariness of being in London g) some of them were there but kept very very quiet as to who they were..

...honestly Lynn, there are tons of reasons why the Family may not have been officially at her funeral...I could go on for ages..

"Those friends actually had Scottish roots (I will have to find out more). There might be something that explains the 'Scots Guards'. A 'tradition' somewhere?

Perhaps. But Debs and Colin have already had a go there.

Interesting. I haven't read back much...but was that Northern Ireland or Limerick ?

"The name 'Mary' however points to Catholics (but wouldn't that narrow down things in Ulster ?)"

Possibly

.

I should think, quite a lot...

"Or she didn't have her Father's name."

Well, Joseph Barnett at inquest said his name was "John Kelly."

Care to try the obvious?

Obviously, the obvious is the first thing to obviously try...then it has to be the next obvious thing.

She might have used her mother's name. Her Grandfather's name. I just can't believe that she pulled the info that has come down to us out of a hat. The key is almost certainly there somewhere..

[lynn cates]

options

Hello Debs. I MUCH prefer the latter.

If we have some credible leads for Barnett and whom he was, and given he lived in the neighbourhood respectably for some time thereafter, then the second option is even more likely.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Scots Guards

Hello Ruby.

"Interesting. I haven't read back much...but was that Northern Ireland or Limerick?"

It was the Scots Guards. No luck.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Collusion

Hi Lynn. Can I ask? Do you think Barnett would have been part of this collusion or an innocent party who just relayed what had been told to him by MJK?

If there was collusion (conspiracy?) it would be prudent to keep the number of people 'in the know' to an absolute minimum. Barnett would be more convincing if he actually believed what he was told, I would have thought.

We tend (all of us perhaps) to think that, because we can't find MJK in the historical archive, she must have told lies about her past. That she may have been lying is a worthy consideration. That she must have been lying is an unfair assumption, in my view.

Regards, Bridewell.