One Kelly family, in Wales.

[Wickerman]

On the face of it Jon, a very interesting family...right number of sons and daughters...the only snags being Mary still being at home at 17 when she's supposed to be married and the (lack of an) alleged Carmarthen/Caernarvon/Cwmavon location...But, as Paul asks, has this one been aired before?

Dave

Hi Dave.
So long as Mary does not resurface in any records after 1888, this family deserves to be front and center.
Hypothetically, Mary could have married later in 1881, after the census. So marrying at 17 as opposed to the suggested 16. Not a serious impediment.

As Mary was still single in the 1881, she could easily have married, become a widow, moved to Cardiff and eventually to the West end of London, then to Whitechapel by 1884. I'm suspicious about the marriage (due to Chris's research), so I'd set that story aside for now.

The father not being called John is noticable, but did he prefer to be a John rather than a Hubert, or does a birth certificate record John Hubert or Hubert John?

The father could have taken a job in Carmarthen after the 1881 Census, or alternately, maybe it was his first job back in 1872-3 on first arriving in Wales?

I was hoping someone would/will come up with some paperwork to show this Mary did indeed live on after 1888, that would settle the issue.
If Chris did not come up with it, surely we have a family worthy of consideration here?

...The pattern of birthplaces for the children reveals that the family moved from Ireland to Wales in time for Garret Kelly to be born in Denbigh about 1874, was back in Ireland for the birth of Thomas in about 1877 and then returned to Wales for Timothy to be born back in Denbigh in 1880. Of course, this does not necessarily mean that the whole family undertook all these trips - it was only necessary for their mother, Bridget, to be in Ireland for the birth of Thomas, for whatever reason, for this pattern to be established.

Chris.
I noticed the same timing, strange that my wife is Irish but all her brothers are English. Her mother insisted on going back to Co. Claire to give birth to Ann, which immediately came to mind as I noticed that same sequence of dates, interesting.
And thankyou for expanding on this issue.

Regards, Jon S.

[Chris Scott]

Hi guys
This was what I said in "Will the Real Mary Kelly"


A search of the 1881 census for Wales under the full name, Mary Jane Kelly, produced only three results, all far too young and none Irish born. There were 63 "Mary Kelly" entries, of whom 19 are noted as born in Ireland. Apart from the Mary Ann Kelly living in Flint, only one other record falls within the probable age range. This individual is listed as Mary Kelly, aged 17, living at Brymbo in Denbighshire. The full household listing for this young lady is as follows:
Address: Broughton Colliery Cottages, Brymbo, Denbighshire
Head: Hubert Kelly aged 51 born Ireland - General labourer
Wife: Bridget Kelly aged 47 born Ireland
Children:
Michel (sic) aged 25 born Ireland - Labourer
John aged 24 born Ireland - General labourer
Hubert aged 19 born Ireland - General labourer
Mary aged 17 born Ireland - Servant
Patrick aged 13 born Ireland
Elizabeth aged 10 born Ireland
Garret aged 7 born Denbigh Lodge
Thomas E aged 4 born Ireland
Timothy aged 1 born Denbigh Lodge
The most interesting correlation between this family and the Barnett account is his assertion that Kelly had one sister and six or seven brothers. This Mary Kelly, indeed, had one younger sister and seven brothers. The pattern of birthplaces for the children reveals that the family moved from Ireland to Wales in time for Garret Kelly to be born in Denbigh about 1874, was back in Ireland for the birth of Thomas in about 1877 and then returned to Wales for Timothy to be born back in Denbigh in 1880. Of course, this does not necessarily mean that the whole family undertook all these trips - it was only necessary for their mother, Bridget, to be in Ireland for the birth of Thomas, for whatever reason, for this pattern to be established.
......

1891 Census:

We have two families to follow through from the 1881 census. The Kelly family living at Brymbo are listed in 1891 at a different address and the head of the household, Hubert Kelly, had died in the intervening ten years. They are listed as follows:
Address: 12 Poplar Road, Wrexham Regis, Denbighshire
Head: Bridget Kelly aged 58 born Ireland - Widow
Children:
Patrick aged 23 born Ireland - Colliery banksman
Elizabeth aged 20 born Ireland - Dressmaker
Garret F aged 17 born Denbigh - Colliery banksman
Thomas Edward aged 13 born Ireland
Timothy aged 11 born Wrexham, Denbigh
The main points of interest here are the absence of the four oldest children - Michel, John, Hubert Jnr. and Mary, and the appearance of a hitherto unlisted son, Thomas Edward, who is not mentioned in the 1881 census. By 1881, John Kelly was married to Mary E. Kelly and had set up home at Lodge, Broughton and was described as a "Top foreman - coal." Of the other three siblings I have been unable to find any trace in the census record for 1891.

......

[Cogidubnus]

On the face of it Jon, a very interesting family...right number of sons and daughters...the only snags being Mary still being at home at 17 when she's supposed to be married and the (lack of an) alleged Carmarthen/Caernarvon/Cwmavon location...But, as Paul asks, has this one been aired before?

Dave

[Wickerman]

That could be Paul, I'd like to know the details.

We can see from the birth dates that the last child born in Ireland was in 1871, the next born in Wales was 1874. So, they could have come over anywhere between those dates (1872-3), when Mary would have been 8 or 9 years old.

[Wickerman]

Sorry Dave, I didn't realize.
This is Piece 5517, folio 15
Current 1881 address was Broughton Colliery Cottages, Brymbo, Denbighshire, Wales.

KELLY, Hubert Head Married M 51 1830 General Laborer Ireland

KELLY, Bridget Wife Married F 47 1834 (none) Ireland

KELLY, Michel Son Single M 25 1856 Labourer Ireland

KELLY, John Son Single M 24 1857 General Laborer Ireland

KELLY, Hubert Son Single M 19 1862 General Laborer Ireland

KELLY, Mary Daughter Single F 17 1864 Servant Ireland

KELLY, Patrick Son Single M 13 1868 Scholar Ireland

KELLY, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 10 1871 Scholar Ireland

KELLY, Garret F Son Single M 7 1874 Scholar Lodge Denbighshire Wales

KELLY, Thomas E Son Single M 4 1877 Ireland

KELLY, Timothy Son Single M 1 1880 Lodge Denbighshire Wales

[PaulB]

Isn't that the Mary Kelly who Tony Williams claimed was Mary Kelly in Uncle Jack? If it is then I seem to recall that there were reasons why it wasn't her.

[Cogidubnus]

Baffled of Bognor

I'm sorry Jon, but all I get is a "sign-in" page for Find my Past.

Dave

[Wickerman]

First of all I have to say, this Kelly family must have been considered over the past 20 or so years. So may I ask our hard working researchers, do you recall why this family was passed over?
There must be a reason, perhaps this Mary Kelly lived a long and fruitful life?
Does anyone recall, or is it worth a second look?

http://tiny.cc/atdcdw

Regards, Jon S.