One Kelly family, in Wales.

[The Good Michael]

Aye, along with Mike "King" Kelly, the late 19th century baseball player who inspired the song "Slide, Kelly, Slide" written by Frank Harding.

And Kelly, the Boy from Killane

Mike

[PaulB]

Trev,

I think the only Kelly not mentioned so far is the one Flannagan and Allen sung about "On Mother Kellys Doorstep"

Aye, along with Mike "King" Kelly, the late 19th century baseball player who inspired the song "Slide, Kelly, Slide" written by Frank Harding.

To illustrate the ubiquity of the name, in my small town in the early 20th century the "town team" often had five different Kellys in the nine-man starting lineup.

Don.

Don,
That we have a Mary Kelly moving to Wales and becoming Mary Jones makes this a significant genealogical research nightmare. All kudos to those who worked through it, and so quickly too.

[PaulB]

I just had a message from Jenni Shelden.

Research into this family formed part of her talk at Cardiff on the"Uncle Jack" book. This is the relevant part from Jenni's presentation:

"David Knott suggested that the Mary Kelly whom Williams and Price state was the same one as the final Ripper victim, was alive and well at the time of the 1891 census. He found a Mary Kelly marrying a Griffin Jones in 1886 and that there was a Mary Jones on the 1891 census with details that fit with those of the Kelly found on the 1881 census and identified as the same person as the Ripper victim by Williams and Price. Therefore the Mary Kelly identified by Williams and Price could not have been the Mary Kelly killed by Jack the Ripper in 1888. On Casebook David subsequently said on 2nd Feb 2006 “this is correct. The Mary Kelly identified in Uncle Jack from the 1881 census was actually a Mary Ann Kelly, not a Mary Jane Kelly, and she was married to Griffith Jones at St Marys Catholic Church on February 27th 1886. They were still together at the time of the 1901 census.”

I don't think David Knott firmly established that Brymbo Mary and Mary the Beer were one and the same, though, but he did enough to make that part of the Uncle Jack story less than proven, which given the other gaping deficiencies of Williams theory was all that mattered. We now know, however, that Mary the Beer was alive in 1911, helping Griffith to run the Union Tavern in Wrexham, and that she gave her birthplace as Ballinasloe, which is where Brymbo Mary's father, Hubert, appears to have lived before coming with his family to Wales. The identification looks tight.

[curious]

Thankyou Debs.
So here we have the crux of the argument.
Given the extraordinary set of coincidences between the "bio" of the Millers Court victim and this "Mary from Brymbo", it may be worth giving all these documents a second look.

Much appreciated, Jon S.

Terrific research!

What are you thinking, Jon?

neighbor? cousin? Someone close to the family?

[Supe]

Trev,

I think the only Kelly not mentioned so far is the one Flannagan and Allen sung about "On Mother Kellys Doorstep"

Aye, along with Mike "King" Kelly, the late 19th century baseball player who inspired the song "Slide, Kelly, Slide" written by Frank Harding.

To illustrate the ubiquity of the name, in my small town in the early 20th century the "town team" often had five different Kellys in the nine-man starting lineup.

Don.

[Wickerman]

Thankyou Debs.
So here we have the crux of the argument.
Given the extraordinary set of coincidences between the "bio" of the Millers Court victim and this "Mary from Brymbo", it may be worth giving all these documents a second look.

Much appreciated, Jon S.

[Trevor Marriott]

I just had a message from Jenni Shelden.

Research into this family formed part of her talk at Cardiff on the"Uncle Jack" book. This is the relevant part from Jenni's presentation:

"David Knott suggested that the Mary Kelly whom Williams and Price state was the same one as the final Ripper victim, was alive and well at the time of the 1891 census. He found a Mary Kelly marrying a Griffin Jones in 1886 and that there was a Mary Jones on the 1891 census with details that fit with those of the Kelly found on the 1881 census and identified as the same person as the Ripper victim by Williams and Price. Therefore the Mary Kelly identified by Williams and Price could not have been the Mary Kelly killed by Jack the Ripper in 1888. On Casebook David subsequently said on 2nd Feb 2006 “this is correct. The Mary Kelly identified in Uncle Jack from the 1881 census was actually a Mary Ann Kelly, not a Mary Jane Kelly, and she was married to Griffith Jones at St Marys Catholic Church on February 27th 1886. They were still together at the time of the 1901 census.”

I think the only Kelly not mentioned so far is the one Flannagan and Allen sung about "On Mother Kellys Doorstep"

[Debra A]

I just had a message from Jenni Shelden.

Research into this family formed part of her talk at Cardiff on the"Uncle Jack" book. This is the relevant part from Jenni's presentation:

"David Knott suggested that the Mary Kelly whom Williams and Price state was the same one as the final Ripper victim, was alive and well at the time of the 1891 census. He found a Mary Kelly marrying a Griffin Jones in 1886 and that there was a Mary Jones on the 1891 census with details that fit with those of the Kelly found on the 1881 census and identified as the same person as the Ripper victim by Williams and Price. Therefore the Mary Kelly identified by Williams and Price could not have been the Mary Kelly killed by Jack the Ripper in 1888. On Casebook David subsequently said on 2nd Feb 2006 “this is correct. The Mary Kelly identified in Uncle Jack from the 1881 census was actually a Mary Ann Kelly, not a Mary Jane Kelly, and she was married to Griffith Jones at St Marys Catholic Church on February 27th 1886. They were still together at the time of the 1901 census.”

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Debra,

Personally, I'd cross any Mary Kelly off the list.

Regards,

Simon

I totally agree

[PaulB]

Thanks, Chris.
Do you think, like me, that we can probably cross this Mary off the list too now?

It is certainly looking that way, Debs. Another one bites the dust, as Queen was wont to say.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

Personally, I'd cross any Mary Kelly off the list.

Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

Some very impressive info in this thread Debs :-)

Thanks, Chris.
Do you think, like me, that we can probably cross this Mary off the list too now?

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

This angle has been gone into with a fine tooth comb, but might be useful for those playing catch-up.

Western Mail
12 November 1888

"Our Swansea reporter writes:-

"The very name of Whitechapel is regarded with such general loathing that one might expect it would be cautiously avoided as a topic of conversation. The news, however, of the sixth (or seventh) murder in this vicinity furnished by the papers on Saturday was a subject more freely canvassed than any other at Swansea, and there was, of course, a good deal of speculation as to whether the police would this time be too many for the wily perpetrator. The subject exerted the more interest on it coming to light during the day that the murdered woman Kelly was for some time a resident of Swansea. She was, I am informed, born in a house near the National Schools, Llanelly. She came to Swansea, and entered the service of a Mr and Mrs Rees (the latter being the daughter of the late Dr Hopkins, of Carmarthen, and now awaiting her trial for murder) where she remained for about six months. She afterwards lived at Swansea, and her morals became more questionable every day. She is described as a fine, well built girl.

"Our reporter made inquiries at Cardiff Police station, in order to discover if the unfortunate woman was known to the police. He was informed by Mr Hemingway (the head constable) that he had no recollection of anyone answering the description of the victim, and that so far as he was aware, the woman had not come under the notice of the police."

Regards,

Simon

[Wickerman]

She said something very strange which i have only now just tied in. She said something along the lines of "didnt one of them come from Brymbo?"........

Thankyou Jason, I wonder if it would be worth checking any local papers for Nov-Dec 1888. If anyone believed a local girl was somehow involved in the Whitechapel murders a local paper would surely have made the most of it.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

I appreciate the interest you have all shown, and for the contributions Debs, Livia, Paul, Chris, and an interesting tid-bit from Jason.
Thankyou all, this is promising.

Best Wishes, Jon S.