Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Jon

If I follow Trevor correctly, I believe he's suggesting that a lot of the fairy tales told to reporters eagerly questioning the locals are just that...fairy tales concocted for the sake of gaining attention (plus perhaps a few free drinks)...on which basis he's suggesting we should be cautious in trusting press reports which aren't substantiated elsewhere...

I often disagree with Trevor, but can't fault his logic at all in this instance!

All the best

Dave

I think you got that spot on and one press man who was fed big helpings was GR Simms.

[Cogidubnus]

Haunted

Bloody hell Trevor...I blink and you're there!

All the best

Dave

[PaulB]

Hello Mr. Begg. Thanks.

"It's far more likely that he was repeating what Kelly had told him, but one could ask the same question of Kelly - why would she have lied?"

Well, we are taking suggestions as above. What are the usual reasons?

A specific story? Yes, to my puny mind sounds like she has a ready to hand cover story.

Cheers.
LC

In asking 'why would she have lied?' I was specifically thinking of whether the 'usual reasons' were satisfied by inventing a brother? By making him a soldier? By giving him a specific regiment? By giving him a specific battalion within that regiment? Of course, they could have been - anything could have been - but it is a fairly detailed lie. And Barnet remembered it well enough to have known that the 2nd Battalion had recently been transferred to Ireland. And Barnett said that this brother had visited Kelly. We have, I think, to allow for the possibility that Kelly did have a connection with the 2nd Battalion. Maybe Barnet simply got the brother's name wrong?

[Cogidubnus]

Controversial!

I think you got that spot on and one press man who was fed big helpings was GR Simms.

Hmm...am I mistaken or is this thread about to get heated?

(I'll be glad to be wrong in this one instance!)

Dave

[lynn cates]

cover

Hello Mr. Begg. I agree that parts of her story are VERY detailed. And yet, not a single bit is confirmed.

Sounds so very like a cover story. Something to be used over and over.

Maybe I am watching too many "Danger Man" episodes in syndication?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

interesting

Hello Dave. Oh, no. Just interesting.

Cheers.
LC

[PaulB]

It could be something as simple as Kelly having once dated a soldier in the Scots Guards. This then become a brother. As Lynn said- a lie is easier to remember if it contains some truth. Why she'd lie about this I do not know. Perhaps it sounded more exotic than having a brother who was a day labourer

It could indeed have been something as simple as that, but we're presupposing Kelly lied and on what evidence is that presumption based? Other bits and pieces of her story seem to have varying degrees of corroboration of sorts.

[Trevor Marriott]

In asking 'why would she have lied?' I was specifically thinking of whether the 'usual reasons' were satisfied by inventing a brother? By making him a soldier? By giving him a specific regiment? By giving him a specific battalion within that regiment? Of course, they could have been - anything could have been - but it is a fairly detailed lie. And Barnet remembered it well enough to have known that the 2nd Battalion had recently been transferred to Ireland. And Barnett said that this brother had visited Kelly. We have, I think, to allow for the possibility that Kelly did have a connection with the 2nd Battalion. Maybe Barnet simply got the brother's name wrong?

Or could it be that everyone else on here is right and you are wrong.

Now that would be a first wouldnt it.

[Wickerman]

Fair enough, Jon, but where did her father travel from to visit her? He either had a very important reason for making the journey all the way from Wales, or he was living much closer than that. Mary claimed to have moved to London from Wales - perhaps the rest of the family did likewise.

Regards, Bridewell.

The story tells us that he "came from Wales to find her", which implies it was not a casual visit. So as the family was "fairly well off"(?), the reason might have been very important to him. The suggestion that she intenionally avoided him also raises the question, did she know why?

Her friends warned her that he was looking for her.
So how would they know this unless he was asking for her by the name he knew her by, which had to be the same name that her friends knew her by, which also had to be the same name she used to rent the place in Pennington-street.

What name was that one may ask - what else could it have been?

Regards, Jon S.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Dave. Oh, no. Just interesting.

Cheers.
LC

No Dave was right

[lynn cates]

light, not heat

Hello Trevor. Now, now.

Cheers.
LC

[PaulB]

Hello Mr. Begg. I agree that parts of her story are VERY detailed. And yet, not a single bit is confirmed.

Sounds so very like a cover story. Something to be used over and over.

Maybe I am watching too many "Danger Man" episodes in syndication?

Cheers.
LC

I wouldn't say 'not a single bit'. Mrs Carthy. Mrs Buki. Okay, so they aren't exactly great, and we can dismiss them as yet more lies and journalistic inventions, which, as said, is a quick and easy get out when we encounter stories we can't verify, but prima facie they seemingly support some aspects of Kelly's tale. And people seem to accept the reality of Joseph Fleming and even 'Morganstone'.

As for a cover story, well, what are you hinting at, that Kelly had some deep, dastardly secret she wanted to hide? That she was a female John Drake under deep cover? It would be exciting if she was.

[PaulB]

Or could it be that everyone else on here is right and you are wrong.

Now that would be a first wouldnt it.

Waving your inflated pig's bladder again. Go and play detective, Trevor, I don't have the time for you.

[PaulB]

The story tells us that he "came from Wales to find her", which implies it was not a casual visit. So as the family was "fairly well off"(?), the reason might have been very important to him. The suggestion that she intenionally avoided him also raises the question, did she know why?

Her friends warned her that he was looking for her.
So how would they know this unless he was asking for her by the name he knew her by, which had to be the same name that her friends knew her by, which also had to be the same name she used to rent the place in Pennington-street.

What name was that one may ask - what else could it have been?

Regards, Jon S.

Yes indeed.

[lynn cates]

Jane Drake

Hello Mr. Begg. I am delighted with the Fleming story--believe it on the up and up.

Jane Drake? I like it.

Here's something I found in my file. Part of a poster from 1883:

"You will note with pleasure that the informer is foredoomed, that no man can betray and live, no corner of the earth too obscure or too far to hide . . ."

Sounds a bit threatening. Know the author?

Cheers.
LC