Kellys in the Scots Guards

[lynn cates]

lies

Hello Mr. Begg. But why assume HE originated the lie?

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

But you are agreeing with the majority of us on this thread, not just Lynn;that MJK lied to Barnett in some way.
There is no Henry Kelly in the Scots Guards in 1888, so she must have lied at least once.

Debra

Just for the record

I think her whole life story was a lie and I dont think her real name was Mary Kelly either.

I also dont think her relationship with Barnet was set in stone as some seem to think. Are we to believe that all the time they were supposedly together as an item she never prostitued herself.

Lests face it much of the ripper mystery is centered around lies and deceit either from persons giving false details, to those using aliases, to police officers the list goes on and on.

[Bridewell]

Why Lie?

Hello Stephen. Ah, so we've begun. Super.

Prostitutes? Fair enough. We know a few of her names along that line--Fair Emma, Ginger, etc. But then why fib to Barnett? He already knows her.

Porn star? Maybe not.

Criminal past? Could be.

Keep going? Let's keep a list?

Cheers.
LC

Why lie about her identity:

Prostitute? Criminal? Doesn't want to be found for some reason?

Why lie to Barnett?

He won't like her if he learns the truth? But if so, it would have to be something in her past worse than prostitution.

She can't trust him not to reveal the truth - whatever it was?

Another question would follow on: If she was lying about her identity because she didn't want to be found, who found her and how?

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

points

Hello Colin.

"Doesn't want to be found for some reason?"

Yes, indeed. What might happen if you ARE found?

"He won't like her if he learns the truth?"

But he didn't like prostitution. If she went back to that line, he seemed aware of it.

"But if so, it would have to be something in her past worse than prostitution."

Now you're talking. Perhaps more dangerous if found out.

"She can't trust him not to reveal the truth - whatever it was?"

Or to let it slip inadvertently.

"Another question would follow on: If she was lying about her identity because she didn't want to be found, who found her and how?"

Now you're talking. Who indeed?

I commend your grey cells, sir!

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

Can I say

Ouch, did I just feel a prod with a sharp stick!
Debs, please, I was born at night, but not last night. I only said those news reports are all we have, not that they are the absolute truth!
Meaning..... we are in no position to discredit, change or discard any one of them until something tangible surfaces to demonstrate any one of those stories holds a minutae of truth.

So why do we have to belive. How do we know that things such as these were not lies from the outset when they were given to the press. It annoys me that when anyone challenges these things. All we get back is this ridiculous answer, and we get it back from those who want to automatically belive what they read in the press reports



Because, Debs, we still hold the slender hope of something else she said turning up. But.... if Mary Kelly is not her real name, we are totally dead in the water to research anything she said at all.
If Mary Kelly was not her real name, then neither was her father John or her brother Henry/John called Kelly. We have no avenue to pursue.



Precisely!, so why cook the goose before we've thoroughly plucked it

(careful how you say that)

Best Wishes, Jon S.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Jon.

"If Mary Kelly was not her real name, then neither was her father John or her brother Henry/John called Kelly. We have no avenue to pursue."

Possibly, but not necessarily. We might begin by asking, "Why would a young girl wish to confuse her identity?"

Cheers.
LC

If she had something to hide.

If she was running away from something or someone

If she didnt want to be found

[/I]

[PaulB]

Hello Mr. Begg. But why assume HE originated the lie?

Cheers.
LC

I don't. I don't think he did. I was simply answering Simon's suggestion that he could have been.

It's far more likely that he was repeating what Kelly had told him, but one could ask the same question of Kelly - why would she have lied? Or, to rephrase that, it's very specific for a lie, and it made an impression of Barnet who was able to state that the Battalion was in Ireland, it having just been moved there. And he said, 'A brother in the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards came to see her once, but beyond that she saw none of her relations, nor did she correspond with them.' This sounds like he was citing personal knowledge rather than something which had happened prior to him meeting Kelly, though it needn't be, of course.

[Wickerman]

Another question would follow on: If she was lying about her identity because she didn't want to be found, who found her and how?

Regards, Bridewell.

Her father, he looked her up in Pennington-street, unless we have to take this as a lie too?
If not, then surely we have some minutae of truth in her name, how else could he look her up?

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

fear

Hello Trevor. Well, here's another copper with sterling grey cells. Excellent suggestions.

By the way, did not Barnett suggest that Mary was fearful of someone?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

story

Hello Mr. Begg. Thanks.

"It's far more likely that he was repeating what Kelly had told him, but one could ask the same question of Kelly - why would she have lied?"

Well, we are taking suggestions as above. What are the usual reasons?

A specific story? Yes, to my puny mind sounds like she has a ready to hand cover story.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Can I say

So why do we have to belive. How do we know that things such as these were not lies from the outset when they were given to the press.

Believe what?

[jason_c]

I don't. I don't think he did. I was simply answering Simon's suggestion that he could have been.

It's far more likely that he was repeating what Kelly had told him, but one could ask the same question of Kelly - why would she have lied? Or, to rephrase that, it's very specific for a lie, and it made an impression of Barnet who was able to state that the Battalion was in Ireland, it having just been moved there. And he said, 'A brother in the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards came to see her once, but beyond that she saw none of her relations, nor did she correspond with them.' This sounds like he was citing personal knowledge rather than something which had happened prior to him meeting Kelly, though it needn't be, of course.

It could be something as simple as Kelly having once dated a soldier in the Scots Guards. This then become a brother. As Lynn said- a lie is easier to remember if it contains some truth. Why she'd lie about this I do not know. Perhaps it sounded more exotic than having a brother who was a day labourer

[Bridewell]

Her father, he looked her up in Pennington-street, unless we have to take this as a lie too?
If not, then surely we have some minutae of truth in her name, how else could he look her up?

Regards, Jon S.

Fair enough, Jon, but where did her father travel from to visit her? He either had a very important reason for making the journey all the way from Wales, or he was living much closer than that. Mary claimed to have moved to London from Wales - perhaps the rest of the family did likewise.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Cogidubnus]

Believe what?

Hi Jon

If I follow Trevor correctly, I believe he's suggesting that a lot of the fairy tales told to reporters eagerly questioning the locals are just that...fairy tales concocted for the sake of gaining attention (plus perhaps a few free drinks)...on which basis he's suggesting we should be cautious in trusting press reports which aren't substantiated elsewhere...

I often disagree with Trevor, but can't fault his logic at all in this instance!

All the best

Dave

[Trevor Marriott]

It could be something as simple as Kelly having once dated a soldier in the Scots Guards. This then become a brother. As Lynn said- a lie is easier to remember if it contains some truth. Why she'd lie about this I do not know. Perhaps it sounded more exotic than having a brother who was a day labourer

I suspect Prostitutes in 1888 only usually dated people for finacial reward, and usually that date was over almost as soon as it begun