Kellys in the Scots Guards

[lynn cates]

contrived

Hello Chris.

"If this nickname Johnto was not given and used within the family, but was specifically, according to Barnett, the name used among his army comrades, how would Mary Kelly have known this unless she were visited by her brother or at least in correspondence with him?"

What if it were contrived? Of course, that would be an odd thing to include in a made up story.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Assuming (dangerous game I know!) that Mary were in a relationship of some form with a man known as Johnto, perhaps they were in correspondence, and she may then have primed Barnett with the "my brother Johnto" story to explain away the letters...

We know from the City Missionary that Mary could read and write and was in correspondence with her mother, so additional letters from other "family members" may well be plausible...

Passing thought...

Dave

[lynn cates]

subterfuge

Hello Dave. Not a bad idea, but I'm still not clear on why her subterfuge. Barnett seemed aware of:

1. How she earned her livelihood.

2. That she was fond of another man.

So why bother to disguise the letter? After all, if he could read the address and inquire, certainly he could open the letter and read it?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

I've just found this posted by a Wikipedia user who has "Jonto" as a user name:

OK - my name is not actually John, Johnny, or anything related. While written "Jonto", it should be pronounced "Janto" in a true Belfast accent!

[Cogidubnus]

So why bother to disguise the letter? After all, if he could read the address and inquire, certainly he could open the letter and read it?

That's a very good way to terminally fall out with a partner Lynn...would YOU open a letter addressed to your other half?

Preparing the way with a "brother Johnto" story might actually reduce the risk of his opening their correspondence anyway...

While written "Jonto", it should be pronounced "Janto" in a true Belfast accent!

Hi Bridewell,

Is that the Belfast in the north or another one in Limerick? The accents are totally different of course...Many years ago I had a pub aquaintance who, with his brother, came from the south west of Ireland, and even when for politeness sake, they conversed in English, it was as much as I could do to make out perhaps one word in three...

Interestingly, he was known as Seany, which he and his brother pronounced far more like Johnny (with just a trace of softness to the J)...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

open sesame

Hello Dave.

"That's a very good way to terminally fall out with a partner Lynn...would YOU open a letter addressed to your other half?"

Possibly not. But perhaps neither would I scrutinise the address?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Possibly not. But perhaps neither would I scrutinise the address?

Not even when McCarthy or Bowyer pass you the letter and say "letter for Mary" ?

(Only possibly not...does she know this Lynn? )

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

suum quique

Hello Dave. Hmm, I suppose there were no strictures then? One might be in a spot of trouble today for being indiscriminate with "handing out" another's material.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

...pulchrum est!

Hi Lynn

Cicero isn't it?

Of course it's possible McCarthy might've held back Mary's post specifically for her...but if he saw Joe, "en passant" would he worry too much over the formalities?

Dunno

Dave

[lynn cates]

bureaucratic

Hello Dave. Perhaps I say that based on my bureaucratic experience. If I give another student's work to a student--even though a married partner--I could be boiled in oil. So I have learned the rules and to be efficient.

Heck, I even dream in triplicate. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Which would appear to be the most logical explanation were it not for the fact that at least one newspaper, independently of Abberline, also made reference to 'Johnto'. I'm fairly sure that it was The Times, though I haven't as yet been able to locate it in the Press Reports. But I recall it distinctly because I wondered at the time whether the report had confused 'Johnto' with 'John too'.

And I would not doubt you Garry, but you will understand that this source needs to surface to help substantiate the claim one way or the other.

Regards, Jon S.

[Bridewell]

Another Reference

I've just found this posted by a Wikipedia user who has "Jonto" as a user name:

OK - my name is not actually John, Johnny, or anything related. While written "Jonto", it should be pronounced "Janto" in a true Belfast accent!

Hi All,

I've done some more digging into this. The guy from whom the above is taken refers, in a link, to "spides" which are apparently the Belfast equivalent of the English "chav". I've also found this snippet on QI Talk Forum:

"Hmm I have never heard that term in my life and I have lived in Belfast my whole life but as I am a teenager I am very familiar with the spide and millie culture. There is also jonto for a spide but it seems only to be a local term as in only my mates in a 1 mile radius use it. I don't use it though. People think it is quite funny that my sister was a millie and I a "hippie" ".

If this is relevant, it doesn't look like a particularly complimentary nickname.

Regards, Bridewell

[Debra A]

And I would not doubt you Garry, but you will understand that this source needs to surface to help substantiate the claim one way or the other.

Regards, Jon S.

But in the same vein, Jon: Is there any mention at all in the inquest reporting of Mary's brother being called anything by his comrades?

Also, if you look back at my earlier posts you will see I don't go with the 'Ianto' idea either, I also mentioned the pronunciation would be totally different for Abberline to have written it down as Johnto from Barnett's dictation, so I have no idea where you got the idea I was championing the 'Ianto' version over 'John too'.

In my posts, (and bless you Curious and hallelujah! Yes, that's kind of what I think I'm wondering about, thanks for noticing )I have been trying to explore the idea of the nickname being linked to a surname and have come across several examples of men with the surname Johnston nicknamed 'Jonto' or 'Janto'.

Bridewell, I mentioned the Belfast Millies and Jantos (chavs) a few pages back and wondered if like Millie, which is a 19th C,Northern Ireland but specifically Belfast term for a working class linen mill girl that has continued to present day, that Janto might also have a similar history in Belfastand have an older meaning or connection to something. Not found anything yet, but if you find anything relating to this I'd be interested in it , thanks.

[lynn cates]

Smitty

Hello Debs. Ah, now the light bulb has come on. You mean like the tradition where Smith becomes Smitty?

Makes sense.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Bridewell, I mentioned the Belfast Millies and Jantos (chavs) a few pages back and wondered if like Millie, which is a 19th C,Northern Ireland but specifically Belfast term for a working class linen mill girl that has continued to present day, that Janto might also have a similar history in Belfastand have an older meaning or connection to something. Not found anything yet, but if you find anything relating to this I'd be interested in it , thanks.

Hi Debra,

Sorry. I obviously missed the post. Didn't mean to steal your thunder.

Regards, Bridewell.