Kellys in the Scots Guards

[lynn cates]

non-existent

Hello Jon.

"It is futile to insist on a name which does not exist. . ."

Completely agree. I cannot find anything in MJK's case that exists.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

We can also see that "Johnto" is written, squeezed in, at the very edge of the paper. The writer has not allowed himself the room for space between "John" and "to". Also, the "to" has an extended tail which can happen when a writer scribes two "oo" together. One is fully rounded the second tails off in mid air.

Hi Jon

Interesting you should latch onto that too...it was my thought on seeing the pic for the first time...I thought maybe the second "o" was off the edge of the sheet, but looking closer it seems not...it's not that close to the edge. The haste of the hand, however, is evident from the flowing strokes between words...which makes the clarity quite remarkable...

So I can't quite subscribe to "John too" rather than "Johnto", but understand your reasoning...

Rather against my instincts, I'm gradually becoming persuaded that there's a Johnto Johnson in the Scots Guards (rather than a brother) who was writing to her...jury's still out on that though...

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

Interesting you should latch onto that too...it was my thought on seeing the pic for the first time...I thought maybe the second "o" was off the edge of the sheet, ...

Hi Dave.
I wouldn't say "off the end of the sheet", rather, it tails off in mid air. The second "o" is flattened out as the pen is lifted off the paper.

Even if the writer did misspell "too" as just "to", this is a common enough mistake for many today. My wife often does it and there's a frequent flyer over on jtrforums who does it on occasion.

All that said, some have suggested Kelly was not her real surname. Yet Barnett's statement uses the name Kelly for both the father & brother. That might be true, or is it Barnett just assuming she meant they were all Kelly's?

As Lynn intimates, what can we rely on with her story anyway?

Regards, Jon S.

[Debra A]

What we do not have is any examples of a bonafide "Johnto"

Hi Jon, I gave you 4 different examples of genuine Jonto Johns(t)ons to start with!

[Cogidubnus]

My wife often does it

Sadly, since our second set of twins, mine doesn't!

Seriously though I still can't go with John too

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

I gave you 4 different examples of genuine Jonto Johns(t)ons to start with!

Keep persuading me Debs...please!

Dave

[Debra A]

Well, Dave-There's John too (although this has been slightly revised I see) which would mean Abberline couldn't differentiate between too and to (as some can't)but, crucially, he also squashed it up to make his misspelt John too into Johnto accidentally making it look like name.
Then, on the other hand we have the fact that Jonto is linked to the surname Johns(t)on.

It's a toss up, just like the grapes.

[Cogidubnus]

Oh you moo....I bit too...you're really so good for me Debs!

Laughing still

Dave

[Debra A]

Dave, I'm really just defending my tiny little corner of this weird world and my right to an opinion just as much as the next bloke with a beard, even though certain others totally blank me for some reason? Yet said certain others try to nag other others into submission over a conclusion, all while moaning on about others who do that!
I don't get it!

[Cogidubnus]

Smiling or not

Debs

Not being funny you're far too good to just defend a tiny little corner of anything...for what it's worth (probably not a lot...I'm just a sad old man with a hobby or two) I see in the likes of you the whole future of Ripperism...as the kids say (and as I've already repeated elsewhere) respect hon...truly

Dave

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon, I gave you 4 different examples of genuine Jonto Johns(t)ons to start with!

Hi Debs.
I am well aquainted with Welsh men bearing the name Yanto/Ianto, (eye-an-toh). Are we supposed to accept "eye-an-toh" for Johnto?

I've even heard it pronounced on tv with respect to a couple of Welsh rugby(?) players. But in each case they are "Eye-an-toh" not anything like Johnto.

"Eye" sounds nothing like "Dj", so if Barnett said "eye", Abberline will write "I", not a "J" (Dj). Phonetically they are not a match.

Sorry Debs, I don't buy it.

All the best, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

....I'm really just defending my tiny little corner of this weird world and my right to an opinion just as much as the next bloke with a beard, .....

Hey Debs!
No need to defend anything, we're all throwing opinions into the mix, your's is just as good, and in some cases better informed than others.

(some cases)

No firm evidence either way, right?
I'm inclined to think the solution is a straight forward spelling issue, as opposed to a "Welsh/English" mix of a nickname adopted by an Irishman?, which incidently was not so described by Barnett.

All the best, Jon S.
(Ok, we don't know the family was Irish, but indications are in that direction)

[Garry Wroe]

I'm inclined to think the solution is a straight forward spelling issue ...

Which would appear to be the most logical explanation were it not for the fact that at least one newspaper, independently of Abberline, also made reference to 'Johnto'. I'm fairly sure that it was The Times, though I haven't as yet been able to locate it in the Press Reports. But I recall it distinctly because I wondered at the time whether the report had confused 'Johnto' with 'John too'.

[curious]

Well, Dave-There's John too (although this has been slightly revised I see) which would mean Abberline couldn't differentiate between too and to (as some can't)but, crucially, he also squashed it up to make his misspelt John too into Johnto accidentally making it look like name.
Then, on the other hand we have the fact that Jonto is linked to the surname Johns(t)on.

It's a toss up, just like the grapes.

Hi, Debs,
I think your research is amazing, and I always learn from you -- so hang in there and keep thinking.

So, if Jonto is linked to the surname Johns(t)on, and MJK's brother was known to his comrades by Jonto, are you thinking it is possible that Kelly's real name was Johnston?

OR are you thinking that she was Kelly, but she had (I'm guessing) younger brothers named Johnston, meaning that her mother remarried and had children by a second husband?

[Chris Scott]

The original source of the nickname of Kelly's brother is Barnett, and that in only one of the two major sources of his evidence from the time of the murder. The account of Kelly's background derives from two documents
1) Barnett's police statement made on the day of the murder and
2) His inquest testimony given on the 12th November
It is in the first of these that the mention of the brother's nickname is made. In his police statement, Barnett affirmed:
"she had a brother named Henry serving in 2nd. Battn. Scots Guards, and known amongst his comrades as Johnto, and I believe the regiment is now in Ireland"
In the inquest testimony made three days later he is quoted as testifying:
"She also said she had six brothers at home and one in the army, one was Henry Kelly."
So in his inquest evidence, as reported, there are two differences of emphasis:
1) There is no mention of the nickname Johnto and
2) Barnett says one brother was Henry, and one was in the army but does not categorically identify the two as one and the same as he did in his police statement.
One ancillary question is, of course, this:-
If this nickname Johnto was not given and used within the family, but was specifically, according to Barnett, the name used among his army comrades, how would Mary Kelly have known this unless she were visited by her brother or at least in correspondence with him?
Chris