The ALLEGED photograph of Mary Jane Kelly

[Dave O]

Well, I don't know if it necessarily sheds any light, but for what it's worth re: a possible transcription error, I think that although it looks to me that the police statements included in the inquest records actually are copies made for the benefit of the coroner, according to Stewart Evans in Sourcebook, they're mostly in Abberline's handwriting (to my eyes Prater's statement is the obvious exception). If that's the case, it seems to me that a transcription error is pretty unlikely, and what the witness said is what was recorded.

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

As to the name “Henry John Joseph” purported to be that of Mary’s brother, I have a suggestion as to why he would have 2 middle names. Mary's family is believed to have been Catholic. When a young adult is confirmed into the Catholic Church they choose a confirmation name based upon a saint that inspires them (in this case apparently St. Joseph), or based upon a virtue they admire (for example, my mother chose the name “Constance”).

And there's me, marrying into a Roman Catholic family, adopting three Roman Catholic children, only now remembering the oaths I took back then...nearly thirty years ago...Memories from a non-religious life - well certainly to that extent you're right!

Dave

[Semper_Eadem]

Thanks For sharing that Dave O, I can't see how anyone would get any transcription errors from that either. As I thought Police tended to be more careful taking statements then reporters.

In regards to the pictures of Mary and Bridget or the images reported to be them, I have seen some people express doubts due to coloring. Now coloring between even full siblings can differ drastically. So I can see those photos of Mary and Bridget being sisters even with different coloring.

My Mom was a complete towhead, folks teased my grandma all the time that my mom looked like she had gotten into a bottle of peroxide. Her sister who was just two years older was a completely different story. Dark as a gypsy.

Photographic proof for what it is worth. Both my Mom and Aunt have a Northern European heritage. I think if the lady in the photo is our Mary Kelly and she is irish then she probably is what some reffer to as dark Irish.

[Semper_Eadem]

Hi Semper. I enjoyed the example you gave about nicknames in the Mortimer family. I’m descended from the Percys and Mortimers of Northumberland on my mother’s side, and I found your story very interesting. That's the kind of obscure knowledge I love- Thanks!

Best regards,
Archaic

I just saw your post and PM'ed you.

[Debra A]

Well, I don't know if it necessarily sheds any light, but for what it's worth re: a possible transcription error, I think that although it looks to me that the police statements included in the inquest records actually are copies made for the benefit of the coroner, according to Stewart Evans in Sourcebook, they're mostly in Abberline's handwriting (to my eyes Prater's statement is the obvious exception). If that's the case, it seems to me that a transcription error is pretty unlikely, and what the witness said is what was recorded.

Dave

Thanks very much for this, Dave.
As I have said-that was part of my doubts about John too (or two) becoming Johnto; that someone taking down Barnett's statement would have to have been a person who confuses the words 'too' and 'to', when writing and also forgot to leave a gap between the John and the to, to make it into Johnto.
Your post settles it for me.

I posted this on another thread during discussion of whether Barnett identified Mary by her "ear and eyes" or "hair and eyes", but it has some relevance here I think; Stewart showed that it clearly says 'ear' in Barnett's statement and posts another source which says specifically it was the 'peculiar shape of the ear'. Is this part of the same statement you posted, Dave?

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=39307&postcount=55

[Debra A]

Lets not forget her father's name was John. Mary is saying that although her brother was named Henry John Joseph, he was known as "John too" (which is what Johnto meant), which to my mind makes perfect sense.
But, surprise-surprise, there are those who disagree..

Regards, Jon S.

Jon, we don't know that Mary's brother's name was really Henry John Joseph do we though? All we know is that was the alleged name of the alleged brother of the woman in the photograph alleged to be MJK, which hasn't been proven to be her yet.

I think it was me who first suggested 'Johnjo' could have been the name, after I noticed it in use as an actual name in the Irish 1901 census. At that time Chris had not revealed either the photograph or the family details that he has now.So, after our previous discussions, it was mostly tongue in cheek when I re-introduced the idea of it being 'Johnjo', to the 'relatives' thread, just on account of the coincidence of the names and maybe the fact that someone else had had exactly the same thought about the name as me...if you understand what I'm getting at?

Personally, I don't think we can ever know why it says his name was 'Johnto' until we can identify Mary and her family for definite in the records?

[The Good Michael]

John Bo anyone? Later to become John Boy Walton, of course.

Mike

[Wickerman]

Finally, Dave O, thankyou very much.

If ever proof was needed that the writer was in the habit of joining words together this demonstrates the fact beyond any reasonable doubt!

Please, anyone who thinks to the contrary, just count just how many times two separate words are strung together, beginning with:
- toldme (told me)
- thather (that her)
- JohnKelly (John Kelly)
- foremanof (foreman of)
- livedat (lived at).
and on, and on...

Ladies & Gentlemen, I rest my case as proven.

Regards, Jon S.

[Debra A]

Nice try, Jon. I still don't buy it though. They still have the appearance of two separate words joined by one pen-stroke, whereas Johnto is clearly meant to be all one word.
Plus, can you prove Abberline didn't know how to use to and too correctly?

[Robert]

What a strange style - he seems to have written "and" in two different ways ('and lived at'...'and known amongst').

[Debra A]

The style looks very much like the handwriting 0n this statement I have, signed by William Thick ( I am not sure if he wrote it but he signed it) of H Division:

[Debra A]

This is part of a statement signed by Abberline:

[Wickerman]

Plus, can you prove Abberline didn't know how to use to and too correctly?

What comes across as clear Debs, is that in the word "also" on the bottom line we have an example of the writer terminating a word with an "o", with no subsequent "tail".

With "Johnto" we have the terminating "o" which also has a "tail", as often occurs when a writer is writing fast and intended "oo", but the last "o" came out distorted or even flat.
This, I think, is what we see here. The word is "too", but came out like "to-", with the final "o" elongated or tapered off flat. With the added complication that he was compressing two words before the edge of the paper.

There are several indicators even in this brief example (by Dave) that the writer was speedily taking things down.
We are only looking at "John too", as in "John, as well" (named like his father).

Regards, Jon S.

[Debra A]

Far from proven for me, Jon. Sorry.

[curious4]

Thank you Archaic. Nice to get some back-up!

"Red Earl" - I would say red hair and red hands (with blood).

Best wishes,

C4