The ALLEGED photograph of Mary Jane Kelly

[Semper_Eadem]

Hello Semper

Welcome to the boards. I also thank you for your interesting contributions. I might be wrong, but I have the feeling that the nickname "Black Mary" referred more to her personality than her hair color. In fact, if you look at the famous photograph of her mutilated corpse, the hair looks fair rather than dark.

In the photograph under discussion of the woman in the hat, which might or might not show the Mary Kelly who was killed in Miller's Court, it's hard to see if the woman's hair actually is dark or whether the shadow from that sizable hat is obscuring the true idea of her actual hair color. In other words, the hair might be dark but it could be just the shadow that is making it appear that way.

Incidentally, isn't it interesting that just as Joe Barnett said that he recognized the corpse as Mary by her "hair and eyes" or else "ears and eyes" we are trying to do the exact same thing with this possible photograph of Mary Jane Kelly?

Cheers

Chris

Hi Chris,

I remember you and your informative posts fondly from JTR Forums, it's George Lorton. I go by Semper Eadem now because I use that on other websites that I post on and I really don't have anything to plug.

I also thought that Black Mary reffered to Mary Kelly's temper, says Semper.lol Until, I saw this photo.

Now referring to a woman's coloring by her nickname is an old practice I first ran across when reading up on the Marcher Lords, namely the Mortimers of the Border Marches between England and Wales. A Ralph Mortimer married the daughter of Llywelyn Fawr, Prince of Wales who name was Gwladys Dubh, I didn't know what Dubh meant and this was in the days before the Internet, so off to the library, I later found out Dubh meant black or dark so I guess Gladys' name referred to her coloring. Mair Dubh would be what our Mary Kelly would of been called in Wales. Sorry for the rambling.

Getting back to the picture, the woman's hair looks dark under that Panama hat as I said in an earlier post in this topic and yet her eyebrows are indeed much lighter as I and few others have noted. So perhaps she was quite fair.
I have never seen the police photo of Mary in her Millers Court crypt. I once got a look at Elizabeth Short via a morgue photo and that was enough for me.

Also if this is our Mary with dark hair then she might be dark Irish. I remember somebody saying she didn't look Irish or European because of her dark looking curly hair, nonsense!!

I was watching Borgia last night and the lead Mark Ryder is Irish and his hair is dark and yet his eyebrows appear lighter then his hair. My eyebrows are lighter then my hair so perhaps we are barking up the wrong tree on that.? Fair is fair.

Now I'm on the fence again. I up and stymied myself.

I do agree with you ChrisG, that we are in the same position as the police in 1888 with this photo. Its a good thing I am just a lowly cadet.

I still wonder if the picture of Bridget and her sister got mixed up? The picture of Bridget fits the description of Mary better and so does the lighter hair, stout build and her dress fits the time period.

Geo, sometimes Semper Eadem lowly yankee cadet on the mean streets of not so White or Chapel like,East End London walking his beat with his stick at the ready and vigilant.

[Semper_Eadem]

Semper (George?)-Just wanted to say hiya, nice to see you posting again.

Hi Deb

[Debra A]

Morris (Maurice) Lewis did say Mary was dark though.
I'm not saying she was, I don't know what colour hair she had, just saying what he said. He claimed he saw her in the pub on Thursday night with Dan and Julia. Joseph Barnett also said in his police statement that Mary had been drinking with his brother, Daniel on Thursday night, so Lewis did seem to know who she was.
..Unless Julia's hair was dark.

[Semper_Eadem]

Morris (Maurice) Lewis did say Mary was dark though.
I'm not saying she was, I don't know what colour hair she had, just saying what he said. He claimed he saw her in the pub on Thursday night with Dan and Julia. Joseph Barnett also said in his police statement that Mary had been drinking with his brother, Daniel on Thursday night, so Lewis did seem to know who she was.
..Unless Julia's hair was dark.

Hmm, The girl with the ever changing hair, reminds me of a Beatles song, When I heard about the supposed Kelly picture, I just had to stop by and get my 2cents in...which got me posting again.

[Rob Clack]

Rob, I think you did originally tell me Titian and you've just forgotten now.

I think, knowing me and hair might have said tissue and you corrected me saying it was titian.

Rob

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi George (Semper)

Good to meet you again. I am not surprised you find wrestling with the questions about this supposed photograph of Mary to be confusing. What else could it be but confusing in this most perplexing of cases. . . the subject of the identity and life story of Mary Jane Kelly who died in Miller's Court, if that really was her name, being the most elusive and worrying of all. It's hard to pin down a single fact about her let alone what she looked like and who she was.

Best regards

Chris

[Debra A]

Hmm, The girl with the ever changing hair, reminds me of a Beatles song, When I heard about the supposed Kelly picture, I just had to stop by and get my 2cents in...which got me posting again.

Sorry, I crossed posts with you on that one, George. It wasn't aimed specifically at you, just a general comment really about Lewis's description of MJK's dark hair. I know the fair hair description comes from the really early reports of the murder and the red probably comes from her said to be nicknamed 'ginger',does it? but which description is the most reliable I wonder?

[Debra A]

I think, knowing me and hair might have said tissue and you corrected me saying it was titian.

Rob

Probably,Rob...I'm such a know it all.

[Rob Clack]

Probably,Rob...I'm such a know it all.

And when you do make a mistake you do admit it

[Cogidubnus]

Actually...She does!

Dave

[Wickerman]

I think Js and T's got mixed up back then because of the way folks wrote them.

Here you have a journalist taking a statement and writing out what he hears. Then at the paper they type it up. Now if the person doing the typing isn't familiar with how that reporter wrote his Js and Ts then it is possible Johnjo became Johnto.

I don't think the press were involved. If I recall correctly this quote by Barnett was from his police statement.

Lets not forget her father's name was John. Mary is saying that although her brother was named Henry John Joseph, he was known as "John too" (which is what Johnto meant), which to my mind makes perfect sense.
But, surprise-surprise, there are those who disagree..

Regards, Jon S.

[Archaic]

re: "Johnto"

Hi everyone.

I came across an old post by Gareth Williams (AKA "Sam Flynn") regarding the name of Mary's brother. As someone earlier on this thread mentioned the Welsh nickname “Ianto’’ I thought it might be of interest.

(From Casebook, June 3, 2005) “The one thing that convinces me that Mary's brother's name was John is the information (supplied by Barnett IIRC) that his nickname was "Johnto". This is highly suggestive of a Welsh connection.

"Ianto" was - and still is in some parts - a very common South West Welsh pet name for "Evan", "Ifan" and by extension "John" (Evan/Ifan being the Welsh equivalent of John). In North Wales (Caernarfon/Fflint) the use of the "Ianto" diminutive is less prevalent than in the South.

South East Wales (Cardiff, Merthyr/Cyfarthfa, Bedwellty) was very cosmopolitan in the latter half of the 19th Century. The Welsh language beginning to lose its grip and, apart from a few pockets of Welsh usage (e.g. in Pontypridd and Llwynypia), the use of colloquial diminutives would also have been in decline. You'd have more easily found a Sean, a Juan or a Giovanni in the Merthyr area than a Ianto at that time.

To me, the fact that "Ianto" was predominantly a South *West* Wales nickname adds some weight to the Kellys having spent some time at Carmarthen or around Carmarthenshire/Pembrokeshire, which were and are veritable "Ianto homelands" to a large extent.

Of course all this hangs on whether "Ianto Kelly" was our "Johnto Kelly". Given that "Johnto" is such an unusual form of "John" (try Googling on Ianto/Johnto and you'll see what I mean), it could well have stemmed from a journalist's or policeman's transcription error (capital J's and I's being very similar in some handwriting to this day).

If so, it's not beyond the bounds of reason that MJK's brother would have been known as "Little Ianto Kelly" - or more likely "Ianto Kelly Fach" - if he and his sister grew up in the Carmarthenshire area of South West Wales.

Of course, that doesn't preclude the family moving further East or North later, but if my equation of Ianto with Johnto is correct then the Kellys may well have spent a good few years down South when they first arrived in Wales.”


As to the name “Henry John Joseph” purported to be that of Mary’s brother, I have a suggestion as to why he would have 2 middle names. Mary's family is believed to have been Catholic. When a young adult is confirmed into the Catholic Church they choose a confirmation name based upon a saint that inspires them (in this case apparently St. Joseph), or based upon a virtue they admire (for example, my mother chose the name “Constance”).

Hi Semper. I enjoyed the example you gave about nicknames in the Mortimer family. I’m descended from the Percys and Mortimers of Northumberland on my mother’s side, and I found your story very interesting. That's the kind of obscure knowledge I love- Thanks!
You also reminded me that I've meant to research why other forebears are called "the Red Earl of Ulster" and "the Brown Earl of Ulster"... Red hair? Red face? A good tan??

Best regards,
Archaic

[Wickerman]

I think Gareth's use of "nickname" distorts the original. Barnett did not say this was a nickname, I think the words used were, "he was also known as".

If Henry was also known, or preferred to be known, by his 2nd name, John, then that is not a nickname, its a genuine given name.

The suggestion of "Yanto" disregards the reference to the father also being named John in the quote. Which must hold significance or otherwise there was no need to mention it.

Regards, Jon S.

[The Grave Maurice]

Nicely recovered thread, Bunny. Thanks. Gee, I miss Gareth around here.

[Semper_Eadem]

I don't think the press were involved. If I recall correctly this quote by Barnett was from his police statement.

Hi Wickerman,

I thought this Johnjo was from a reporters statement being mis-read. Now the Police tended to be be more careful. i remember reading earlier in the thread that the lady who Chris Scott was in touch with said that Mary's brother full name was Henry John Joseph, so I though perhaps that called him John Joe and reporter taking a statments wrote the last J in Joe or Jo as a T making the name Johnto. That did happen a lot back then.

I know a little about welsh names or to be more precise medieval names but diddly squat about what nicknames were being used later on. So if you all think Mary's brother was Ianto then I will take your word for it.

Geo~