The ALLEGED photograph of Mary Jane Kelly

[Semper_Eadem]

Yes nowdays semper...think it covered a wider range from mid-blonde to ginger historically though...on balance I prefer "titian" actually Lynn!!

Dave

I always preffered Titan to redhead myself.

[Sally]

So maybe her air was lighter than it looks to be in the photograph?

Silly, Lazy, Keyboard!

I meant 'hair' of course.

Not ears.

[Cogidubnus]

East End Mum

So maybe her air was lighter than it looks to be in the photograph?

Oh Sally, your dropped H makes me feel so young all over again!

Dave

[Semper_Eadem]

Actually, yes, her eyebrows are quite light - if her hair was black, it would look a bit odd. So maybe her air was lighter than it looks to be in the photograph?

I noticed that right off. Looks like she is wearing a wig because of the difference in shading between her eyebrows and hair.

[Sally]

Oh Sally, your dropped H makes me feel so young all over again!

Dave

'Ere! (best Eliza Doolittle impression).

Has that helped?

You know what they say, Dave, you're only as young as you feel. Or something..

[Semper_Eadem]

That is a wide brimmed hat. I wonder where the light is hitting her? I played Pappy Dolittle in High School when we did Pygmalion.

[Bridewell]

Good Point

I think Js and T's got mixed up back then because of the way folks wrote them.

Here you have a journalist taking a statement and writing out what he hears. Then at the paper they type it up. Now if the person doing the typing isn't familiar with how that reporter wrote his Js and Ts then it is possible Johnjo became Johnto.

The same thing happened with my grandfathers first name Torrence on the 1930 federal census. It became Jorrence, it was a real pain trying to find him believe me.

Hi, Semper,

Welcome to the Boards by the way, and thanks for some perceptive early contributions.

The point about type-setters misreading the handwriting of journalists is a good one. I suspect it happend a lot - "Cadoseh" for Cadosch is one example.
Another, I suspect, is Mrs Buki, who is probably a Mrs Buke, several of whom can be found, including Elizabeth Buke, aged 73 years who is shown as living at 39, Orchard Place, Woolwich Dockyards in the 1891 census.

Just touching on the likelihood of someone being referred to as "John 2" by his army colleagues (as referred to in an earlier post). When I worked for Royal Mail, there were two Tony's in the office, both of whose surnames (the usual tie-breaker) began with the same letter. They were (& still are) known as "Tony 1" & "Tony 2". My vote would go to Johnjo, though, as you & others have suggested.

Best Wishes, Bridewell.

[Cogidubnus]

Sally:-

Yes Mum!

Dave

[Semper_Eadem]

Hi, Semper,

Welcome to the Boards by the way, and thanks for some perceptive early contributions.

The point about type-setters misreading the handwriting of journalists is a good one. I suspect it happend a lot - "Cadoseh" for Cadosch is one example.
Another, I suspect, is Mrs Buki, who is probably a Mrs Buke, several of whom can be found, including Elizabeth Buke, aged 73 years who is shown as living at 39, Orchard Place, Woolwich Dockyards in the 1891 census.

Just touching on the likelihood of someone being referred to as "John 2" by his army colleagues (as referred to in an earlier post). When I worked for Royal Mail, there were two Tony's in the office, both of whose surnames (the usual tie-breaker) began with the same letter. They were (& still are) known as "Tony 1" & "Tony 2". My vote would go to Johnjo, though, as you & others have suggested.

Best Wishes, Bridewell.

Hi Bridwell,

I have enjoyed your posts, I'll take your word for the John 2 as that makes sense and I know nothing about army life/slang. The cloeset I got was working as a deckhand back in the 90's...

[Cogidubnus]

My vote would go to Johnjo, though, as you & others have suggested.

It's a good call Bridewell, though I wonder too about "Jonty" or "Johnty"

Agree about typesetting too...as one who used to phone last-minute bus timetable corrections to old-fashioned typesetters...agggh...don't even go there!

Regards always

Dave

[Semper_Eadem]

It's a good call Bridewell, though I wonder too about "Jonty" or "Johnty"

Agree about typesetting too...as one who used to phone last-minute bus timetable corrections to old-fashioned typesetters...agggh...don't even go there!

Regards always

Dave

I'm game for that too because of the trouble I had finding my grandpa. I was going all over the place looking at the census until I found Jorrence, right were my grandad was living and at the right age and living with my grandads folks.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Chris,

No photographers name on the alleged Mary Kelly photo is there?
I'm not one for fashion trends (I thought flares and tank tops were still in fashion) so the only way I could help would be to trace the photographer.

Regards

Rob

Hi Rob
The image I received is exactly as posted
I have sent a message to the lady who sent it to me to ask the size of the original, if there is any more to the image, if there is any studio name and/or address and if there is anything written on the back. I have also asked the same questions about the alleged Kelly family group pic.
I will let you know as soon as I get any reply
Chris

[ChrisGeorge]

I also think so. I find it interesting too that one of Mary Kelly's nicknames is "Black Mary" which could have referred to her having dark hair and eyes. Yet, I also wonder how dark the sitter in the photos hair is in that her eyebrows are very light or look lighter then her hair.

Bah, I could go on all day nitpicking, yet what I have mentioned are what I think should be noted, that Mary was called Black Mary, which could of had something to do with her having dark hair, now, I always took it to mean that Mary had a temper, but the nickname could had something to do with Mary's coloring too. Yet to be honest Mary was also called Fair Emma too, yet she wasn't called Fair Mary but Emma so perhaps that isn't relevant unless Emma is her real name? Now I am rambling again.

Anyways if that is Mary in the photo and she was called Black Mary I say that is one of the more apt nicknames she was given then.

Hello Semper

Welcome to the boards. I also thank you for your interesting contributions. I might be wrong, but I have the feeling that the nickname "Black Mary" referred more to her personality than her hair color. In fact, if you look at the famous photograph of her mutilated corpse, the hair looks fair rather than dark.

In the photograph under discussion of the woman in the hat, which might or might not show the Mary Kelly who was killed in Miller's Court, it's hard to see if the woman's hair actually is dark or whether the shadow from that sizeable hat is obscuring the true idea of her actual hair color. In other words, the hair might be dark but it could be just the shadow that is making it appear that way.

Incidentally, isn't it interesting that just as Joe Barnett said that he recognized the corpse as Mary by her "hair and eyes" or else "ears and eyes" we are trying to do the exact same thing with this possible photograph of Mary Jane Kelly?

Cheers

Chris

[Rob Clack]

Hi Rob
The image I received is exactly as posted
I have sent a message to the lady who sent it to me to ask the size of the original, if there is any more to the image, if there is any studio name and/or address and if there is anything written on the back. I have also asked the same questions about the alleged Kelly family group pic.
I will let you know as soon as I get any reply
Chris

Thanks Chris,

Regards

Rob

[Debra A]

Rob, I think you did originally tell me Titian and you've just forgotten now.

Semper (George?)-Just wanted to say hiya, nice to see you posting again.