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Hi Richard,
There can be little doubt that Joseph Fleming was Kelly’s “ex” AND the individual referred to by both Barnett and Venturney at the inquest. Both witnesses spoke of Kelly being “fond” of this other Joe, and the very similar wording suggests very strongly that they were referring to the same person. We know that Fleming/Evans took a downward spiral in terms of his occupation, downgrading from a mason’s plasterer to a docker (in 1889 at the earliest), and it’s perfectly possible that he did other odd jobs, such as costermongering, in between.
Well no, the best approach is to assess whether or not the records make sense, which they clearly don’t. It is scarcely possible to be 6’7” (astonishingly tall in 1888), an emaciated 11 stone in weight, and yet still be described as in "good" bodily health. The record is most probably in error. We know that it was wrong on other points, such as age, which was incorrectly listed as 37. Indeed, Debs’ recent suggestion that Fleming was 67 inches (i.e. 5’7”) is very persuasive, in my opinion.
I wouldn’t get carried away with the idea that 11 stone and 5’7” equals unusually heavy for a poor person. Martha Tabram and Annie Chapman were living in extremely impoverished circumstances at the time of their deaths, but both were on the fleshy side.
I wouldn’t assume that. There could have been any number of reasons for Fleming and Kelly parting company that didn’t involve one “getting tired” of the other. We know that this other Joe was reported to have ill-used Kelly, and if domestic violence was a major factor in Kelly and Fleming’s cohabitation, this could well have prompted her to abandon the relationship. That doesn’t mean she stopped being “fond” of him. In such a case, there would be nothing remotely strange about them meeting up subsequently, with him taking steps to win her back. That’s just one example of a plausible reason for Fleming continuing his interest in Kelly. There are no doubt others.
It should have been established beyond reasonable doubt, incidentally, that Fleming/Evans was the man who had a relationship with Kelly. The Joseph Fleming at the inquest was described as a mason’s plasterer with Bethnal Green connections, and Fleming/Evans is the only person who fits that bill, as he does perfectly.
All the best,
Ben
There can be little doubt that Joseph Fleming was Kelly’s “ex” AND the individual referred to by both Barnett and Venturney at the inquest. Both witnesses spoke of Kelly being “fond” of this other Joe, and the very similar wording suggests very strongly that they were referring to the same person. We know that Fleming/Evans took a downward spiral in terms of his occupation, downgrading from a mason’s plasterer to a docker (in 1889 at the earliest), and it’s perfectly possible that he did other odd jobs, such as costermongering, in between.
“Its all very well suggesting that the height was a error, but we have no proof, so must go by the records, until proven otherwise.”
I wouldn’t get carried away with the idea that 11 stone and 5’7” equals unusually heavy for a poor person. Martha Tabram and Annie Chapman were living in extremely impoverished circumstances at the time of their deaths, but both were on the fleshy side.
“Yet clearly they had parted before Barnett met Mary on the 7TH April 1887, so one of them had grown tired of the other before that meeting.”
It should have been established beyond reasonable doubt, incidentally, that Fleming/Evans was the man who had a relationship with Kelly. The Joseph Fleming at the inquest was described as a mason’s plasterer with Bethnal Green connections, and Fleming/Evans is the only person who fits that bill, as he does perfectly.
All the best,
Ben
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