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By the way, has Thomas Cox been found in a census ? His address could be telling.
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Debs, what was Edward occupation ?
Costermonger...?
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David, Joseph, baptised Edward, was a french polisher and at the Poplar Union workhouse in 81 and a general labourer listed at the Waterloo Rd Bethnal Green workhouse in 91. He was once apprenticed to a Bethnal Green shoemaker according to a settlement record found by Chris Scott.Originally posted by DVV View PostDebs, what was Edward occupation ?
Costermonger...?
Trust me with the name thing. I've read hundreds of contemporary trials and thousands of newspaper reports on court cases. There was not the same emphasis on proving identity in those days.
If Edward Joseph was always known as Joseph and that's the name he gave when picked up by police, that's the name that would be in the records....honestly.Comment
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Oh, and the one time an address was given for him, weirdly it was at Bethnal Green Rd. The place where MJK's Flemming was said to have lived.Comment
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Oh, that's this Fleming, ok !...If I'm correct he was married in 1891.David, Joseph, baptised Edward, was a french polisher and at the Poplar Union workhouse in 81 and a general labourer listed at the Waterloo Rd Bethnal Green workhouse in 91. He was once apprenticed to a Bethnal Green shoemaker according to a settlement record found by Chris Scott.
I do trust you, Debs.Trust me with the name thing.
Have you checked his birth certificate ? Perhaps his age fits better (or worse) than that of our Joe (said to be 14 in 1872).Comment
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He was single in both the 1881 and 1891 census. It's the bootmaker in the 1891 census who is listed as married, this JF is a general labourer in 1891 and listed at the BG workhouse, David.Originally posted by DVV View Post
He was born 26th February 1858 making him 14 in 1872.Comment
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Ok Debs, many thanks. The married Fleming seems definitely out of the picture.
But Edward may well be the 1872 Fleming. Was he convicted for similar offences in the 80's ?Comment
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Unless of course the 'married' bit was a mistake as mentioned as a possibility by Chris Scott as the entry shows ditto marks in the marital status column, the person above him being listed as married.
I haven't managed to discover why this JF was sent to prison yet.
In 1881-83 he was a regular at both the Poplar Union and BG workhouses, being sent by one to the other, backwards and forwards. this makes me wonder if he was working in the Poplar area at the time.
In 81 and 83 he was sent from Poplar WH to Bethnal Green WH then on to prison from BG WH. He was also received at the BG WH from prison and sent on to Poplar. It's all very complicated.
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Iron chisel....wood carver
Hello Debs
do you remember that Fleming's accomplice, Thomas Cox, used an iron chisel ?
According to Chris Scott, the most likely fit for this Cox is one Thomas Cox listed in the 1871 census as the son of Amelia Cox, widow born BG, aged 45.
What is interesting is that Thomas Cox trade is "wood carver"....hence the iron chisel, one may think.
Thomas Cox the wood carver is said to be 15 in 1871, while Fleming's accomplice is 17 in 1872, according to the press report.
If the 1872 burglars are "our" JF and this Thomas Cox, then the press report makes them both a little older than they were :
Fleming who was 13 years and 8 months old, is said to be 14.
Cox who was 16 years and some months (?) old, is said to be 17.Comment
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Hi David,
The records unfortunately don't work like that! Cenus entries, workhouse entries, asylums etc. can all be out with BMDs (and some around 5 years or more and still be accepted as the correct person). People mostly didn't know their own date of birth or celebrate their birthday.
The real point of my posting is that we now know there were definitely two men who used the name Joseph Fleming, were born around the same time c 1858 to 1860 and in Bethnal Green. With lots of help, I think I have managed to separate these two men in the records and while doing that I noticed that the one who frequented Bethnal Green workhouse, the one who was NOT the son of Richard and Henrietta andlater sent to an asylum, was sent to prison twice before according to the workhouse records.Comment
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monograph
Hello Debs. Lovely research. Might I recommend your writing a monograph whenever it is completed? I would definitely wish to purchase a copy.
Cheers.
LCComment
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Hi Debs, this I know and understand.
Actually I was minoring my previous statement : that Edward fits better than Joseph in terms of age (based on birth certificates, not censuses).
I was simply observing that if Cox-the-accomplice was the wood carver (which is possible due to the chisel detail), then we have the same slight discrepancy between the birth certificates and the press report, for JF and TC : both are a bit older in the press report then they actually were. It doesn't mean a lot, as you said, but...
For the time being, I'd say it's 50-50 between Edward and Joe.
You have indeed found another candidate for Fleming 1872.
In order to avoid confusion, and since this thread intented to suggest that Fleming-Evans wasn't Kelly's Joe, it's good to reassert that there is no doubt concerning the identity of Kelly's Joe. There is absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise, and no other plasterer called JF has yet been found in Bethnal Green, let alone one who would have dossed in Whitechapel in 1888.
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Insomnia again, Lynn?Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
But many thanks.
Hint taken, David.
I'm buggering off now.
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we build excitement
Hello Debs. Actually, that would be exciting compared to some of my published mediaeval logic papers. Read THOSE and you would NEVER have insomnia again. (heh-heh)
Cheers.
LCComment
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There is nothing like French literature against insomnia. Try Le Clézio.Comment
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