new information: Arthur Mac Donald and the MJK scene photo

[mariab]

Well, Errata, Cesare Lombroso was a bit let “cosmopolitan“ than Alexandre Lacassagne, thus it can be understood that he might have hesitated and advised his protegé Mac Donald to contact the Lyon people about the MJK scene photograph.
France and England were still pretty much the center of the world in the 1890s (and actually up until WWII, until America came out as a superpower), and Italy couldn't even dream of comparing to/competing with France, both academically and power-wise. This despite Lombroso being a very capable, renowed forensic anthropologist.
By the by, there's a Lombroso Museum and collection in Turin I might be inclined visiting in the next couple years.

[mariab]

Meant of course, “less cosmopolitan“.

[Dr. John Watson]

Thus, good to know that Arthur Mac Donald's Le criminel type dans diverses formes de criminalité did contain other engravements apart from the MJK scene photograph. This is an important detail to know and ponder about, and it corroborates my suppositions.

I'm a little confused. I just leafed through Le Criminel-Type and found the engravings Wolf mentioned, but could find no MJK photo.

Befuddled John.

[Dr. John Watson]

Errata, obviously we are talking about a print of the photo. The original plates for MJK1 were located in London by Don Rumbelow, as far as I know.

By "original plates," are you referring to the glass-plate negatives from which prints were made. I recall Rumbelow finding prints of MJK, but I don't recall the original plates being found.

John

[Errata]

Well, Errata, Cesare Lombroso was a bit let “cosmopolitan“ than Alexandre Lacassagne, thus it can be understood that he might have hesitated and advised his protegé Mac Donald to contact the Lyon people about the MJK scene photograph.
France and England were still pretty much the center of the world in the 1890s (and actually up until WWII, until America came out as a superpower), and Italy couldn't even dream of comparing to/competing with France, both academically and power-wise. This despite Lombroso being a very capable, renowed forensic anthropologist.
By the by, there's a Lombroso Museum and collection in Turin I might be inclined visiting in the next couple years.

I just think about the whole breeding and eugenics aspects of Lombroso's theories and think that a photo of a butchered "criminal" (as Kelly was a prostitute) who was the victim of an even greater crime would have Lombroso just sort of swimming in theories of different criminal classes and hierarchies and charting a sort of food chain for criminals and victims.

But on the other hand, since most of his work was based on cataloging known criminals, a case with a completely unknown suspect may not have sparked his interest.

If the Lombroso museum has his insane artists collection, I'm going to be truly jealous.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi Maria.

Does Le criminel type dans diverses formes de criminalité feature a Preface by Lombroso, like Criminality?

No, it doesn’t. There is no Preface and the Introduction is by MacDonald.

Dr. Watson.

I'm a little confused. I just leafed through Le Criminel-Type and found the engravings Wolf mentioned, but could find no MJK photo.

The photo of Mary Kelly didn't appear in MacDonald's book for reasons unknown. It first appeared in 1894 when Dr. André Lamoureux published his doctoral thesis under the title De l’Éventration au point de vue médico-légal (Storck, Lyon). It was later published in Dr. Alexandre Lacassagne’s 1899 book, also published by Storck, Vacher l’éventreur et les crimes sadiques, which also had a photo of Eddowes’s body in the mortuary.

Wolf.

[mariab]

Quote mariab:
Does Le criminel type dans diverses formes de criminalité feature a Preface by Lombroso, like Criminality?
Quote W. Vanderlinden:
No, it doesn’t. There is no Preface and the Introduction is by MacDonald.

Thank you so much for the information, Mr. Vanderlinden.

[mariab]

By "original plates," are you referring to the glass-plate negatives from which prints were made. I recall Rumbelow finding prints of MJK, but I don't recall the original plates being found. John

Yes, glass-plate negatives. I have this information second hand, from How Brown. Apparently Robert McLaughlin mention this in his book, which I don't own.

[Dr. John Watson]

Dr. Watson.
The photo of Mary Kelly didn't appear in MacDonald's book for reasons unknown. It first appeared in 1894 when Dr. André Lamoureux published his doctoral thesis under the title De l’Éventration au point de vue médico-légal (Storck, Lyon). It was later published in Dr. Alexandre Lacassagne’s 1899 book, also published by Storck, Vacher l’éventreur et les crimes sadiques, which also had a photo of Eddowes’s body in the mortuary.

Wolf.

Merci beaucoup for clearing that up, Wolf! I must have missed a page in this thread - thus the confusion. For any who are interested, MacDonald's book is available to download at Google books. Unfortunately, my two years of high school French did me little good in trying to translate the section on JTR. I'll rely on Wolf's excellent summation.

Thankful John.

[Dr. John Watson]

Yes, glass-plate negatives. I have this information second hand, from How Brown. Apparently Robert McLaughlin mention this in his book, which I don't own.

I don't recall reading that in McLaughlin's book or anywhere else for that matter. If original negatives of any of the Ripper photos exist, wouldn't someone have published first-generation quality prints by now?

Intrigued (but doubtful) John.

[Errata]

I don't recall reading that in McLaughlin's book or anywhere else for that matter. If original negatives of any of the Ripper photos exist, wouldn't someone have published first-generation quality prints by now?

Intrigued (but doubtful) John.

CAN they get quality prints off of the old glass plates? I remember someone tried with some old Mathew Brady glass plates and the results were poor. Glass warping and all that.

[mariab]

To Dr. Watson and Errata:
Will have to transfer your questions to Rob Clack or to anyone who's acquainted with the technicalities of historical methods of photography.

[Stewart P Evans]

Lamoureux

Here is the title page of the Lamoureux book, first published in 1894, tracked down by Robert McLaughlin.

[Stewart P Evans]

Lamoureux

Here is the Lamoureux reference to MacDonald in the introduction to the book.

[Stewart P Evans]

Lamoureux

Here is the Lamoureux reference to the Kelly murder.