The Broken Window

[Chava]

Thanks so much for that thread Frank! I've been reading it avidly. and it awakens memories of something else. Wasn't there a problem with the door to #13? It was loose, or under-weighted or not hung properly or something. either way, when the coroner's jury went to visit the scene of the crime, the door swung back and crashed into the chair by the bed if I remember correctly. Cox reports that the door banged shut when she saw Mr Blotchy with MJK going into #13. That suggests a door that makes a lot of noise--as the coroner apparently was aware of since he asked Mary Ann Cox about a man's steps she had heard going down the court at around 5.45 am. He specifically asked her if she heard a door bang.

Just occurs to me that if a stranger broke into Kelly's room by the door, it might bang back and make a noise which would wake her and fetch her up. I don't think it's likely that a stranger would come in via the window. so either the killer came in quietly because he knew about the door, or she let her killer into the room herself.

[Rubyretro]

Hi Jane -you can still read that thread, because I read it (it was fascinating),
and I'm a fairly new member..

[Chava]

I honestly doubt he didn't have a key. if the key was lost it would have been much more expensive to change the lock than to get another key copied. McCarthy was a businessman, not some old dear with a spare room or two to let. The rents weren't his only source of income but I don't see him being cavalier about keys. There's no money in that. Mind you, I don't see him being cavalier about the rent either. And MJK definitely by his own account owed him a substantial sum. I've always wondered about that because there is no rational explanation. Those who have said he wanted her to run up a bill because then she'd owe him and go out hooking on his behalf don't take into account the highly ambulatory habits of women like this. She could just have done a flit. I'd love to get to the bottom of that back-rent...

[Errata]

This is all absolutely possible. The only thing is--and this has troubled me for years and is one of the reasons I still won't completely remove McCarthy from my list of suspects--as a landlord he would have had a key to the premises. So why didn't he use it? I understand the situation was beyond tense, but it was his crib and to break the door down would cause damage he would have to repair. Where was McCarthy's key?

He might not have had a key. Spare keys cost money. I'm not even sure what one did about getting keys made back then come to think of it. He also may not have installed the lock. Kelly might have, or the tenant before her. Half the landlords I ever had gave me a key and told me to go make a copy and bring the original back, because they wouldn't pay for the copies. Providing your own locks was not uncommon either, especially for single gentlemen. It just meant your landlady wasnt going to clean for you if you installed one.

[Chava]

It may have just have been a reporting error. Or a mental glitch. They were called to the scene by McCarthy who said something like "We saw through the window something was wrong, and we tried the door but it was locked."
They are waiting for hours outside in the cold for a pair of dogs who never show, there is a mutilated corpse in the room, their nerves are probably about shot. The police know its locked because McCarthy said it was, but if they noticed the relationship of the window to the door, once they saw the corpse they probably forgot it. Finally McCarthy is told to break the door down, which is a reasonable order about a locked door, and McCarthy is probably in no shape nor has any desire to reach through that window instead. Assuming he ever noticed the broken window and it's relationship to the door. He may never have noticed the broken pane, he may never have thought that it was about right for a person to reach through and unlock the door. And even if he did, he probably wasn't thinking about it, or wasn't willing to mention it lest they tell him to stick his arm in there. Most likely he was sufficiently traumatized that when given a direct order, he obeyed it with thinking about it. I don't know what people talk about in front of the door to a room where there is a woman inside who looks like she's been run through a wood chipper. Especially after waiting for hours. I doubt it occurred to the cop to ask McCarthy what type of lock it was. Or if there was any other way in. They had already come to the conclusion that they couldn't save her. It was probably several men standing around in silence, some occasionally asking "Where are the damn dogs?" I really can't think of a more tense situation.

This is all absolutely possible. The only thing is--and this has troubled me for years and is one of the reasons I still won't completely remove McCarthy from my list of suspects--as a landlord he would have had a key to the premises. So why didn't he use it? I understand the situation was beyond tense, but it was his crib and to break the door down would cause damage he would have to repair. Where was McCarthy's key?

[Errata]

I forgot!

It's possible that the fight that led to the broken windows started when Kelly locked Burnett out of the room. At which point he broke the window to let himself in. They are evidently both drinkers.

[Errata]

I wonder if the poor lighting in the room prevented the police from noticing the door was simply on a latch.

It may have just have been a reporting error. Or a mental glitch. They were called to the scene by McCarthy who said something like "We saw through the window something was wrong, and we tried the door but it was locked."
They are waiting for hours outside in the cold for a pair of dogs who never show, there is a mutilated corpse in the room, their nerves are probably about shot. The police know its locked because McCarthy said it was, but if they noticed the relationship of the window to the door, once they saw the corpse they probably forgot it. Finally McCarthy is told to break the door down, which is a reasonable order about a locked door, and McCarthy is probably in no shape nor has any desire to reach through that window instead. Assuming he ever noticed the broken window and it's relationship to the door. He may never have noticed the broken pane, he may never have thought that it was about right for a person to reach through and unlock the door. And even if he did, he probably wasn't thinking about it, or wasn't willing to mention it lest they tell him to stick his arm in there. Most likely he was sufficiently traumatized that when given a direct order, he obeyed it with thinking about it. I don't know what people talk about in front of the door to a room where there is a woman inside who looks like she's been run through a wood chipper. Especially after waiting for hours. I doubt it occurred to the cop to ask McCarthy what type of lock it was. Or if there was any other way in. They had already come to the conclusion that they couldn't save her. It was probably several men standing around in silence, some occasionally asking "Where are the damn dogs?" I really can't think of a more tense situation.

[jason_c]

"An impression has gone abroad that the murderer took away the key of the room. Barnett informs me that it has been missing some time, and since it has been lost they have put their hand through the broken window, and moved back the catch. It is quite easy."


I believe Abberline accepted this explanation. He was there at the time, could view the dimensions, and once the door was opened could view the lock in more detail.

I wonder if the poor lighting in the room prevented the police from noticing the door was simply on a latch.

[FrankO]

Thanks so much Frank!

You're very welcome, Chava!

You may find the answer to your question on this old but interesting thread that I've just dug up again:

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/6293.html

You can also check the 2 archives at the top of the thread.

All the best,
Frank

[Chava]

Thanks so much Frank!

However I have one more question. I can never keep this info in my head. The lock on the door, was it what I would call a 'Yale lock'? Which would mean that you open it with a key, but when you go out and close the door it locks automatically, and you have to put up the 'sneck' if you don't want to get locked out. If it is, then MJK/Barnett don't just need to lean over and open the lock, they have to put the sneck up as well. I'm not suggesting they didn't. But it's a bit fiddlier than one would wish. And if you are not left-handed it might be a very difficult operation to achieve one-handed. The alternative would be to push the door open, but again, at the angle you'd have to lean to get at the door, it might not be an easy thing to do.

[FrankO]

I can't remember exactly, or if the thread was lost when the site went down, but I seem to remember that Frank Von Oploo (and apologies if I've spelt the name wrong) might have been the one to work out the dimensions and distances.

You remembered right, Janie! It was indeed I, who worked out the approximate dimensions and distances on the thread you referred to. It's still here:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=136589

And you were almost right on the money regarding my name too: Frank van Oploo ('von' is German, meaning 'of' just like the Dutch 'van'). So, no apologies needed.

All the best,
Frank

[Jane Coram]

Hi,

This looks as it's going to develop into an interesting thread!

The distances between the window and the door was discussed at length here on Casebook a while ago, and it was proved more of less conclusively that it was a fairly easy reach for anyone, man or woman.

I can't remember exactly, or if the thread was lost when the site went down, but I seem to remember that Frank Von Oploo (and apologies if I've spelt the name wrong) might have been the one to work out the dimensions and distances. I could be misremembering, it was a fair while ago. I do have a Casebook CD and I'll see if I can find the thread. (By the way, if anyone hasn't bought the CD, do yourself a favour and buy it. )

It probably wouldn't have been too risky putting an arm through the window, because they were very large panes, and looking at the photograph of the actual area of glass that was missing in that lower right hand pane, it would seem to have been quite easy to put your arm through right up to the shoulder without getting anywhere near glass.

I'll see if I can find the information from the old thread and either post a link or post the information up. It's good stuff!

Hugs

Janie

xxxx

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I believe it was reported somewhere that a simple device, was indeed used ie a piece of string, but I stand to be corrected.
Regards Richard.

[Chava]

Thanks for the graphics Nemo! That's a great help.

If those dimensions are correct, it's possible to open the door through the window. But she'd have to push aside the coat thingie that she had hanging across as a sort of curtain. So she has to reach down, probably get her arm under the coat and get the lock. It's certainly doable if she's got long enough arms and if she's made sure to remove the jagged edges from the bottom of the pane so she's clear to the sill. But she's not wearing modern clothing, which would be easy to move around in. I don't know if she's wearing stays but even if she isn't, her skirt and jacket would be tight-fitting, and the arm-holes were cut high and tight in those days, so I don't think it would be the easiest access for her.

I think what may have happened is this:

- They lost the key. Didn't want to/couldn't afford to tell McCarthy about it as I imagine he would have made them pay for a new one.

- They needed to at least look secure, so they broke the lower pane of glass deliberately in order to be able to reach through and unlock the door.

- They had a big fight. During that fight the upper pane of glass was broken.

- Barnett left.

Cox makes no mention of seeing MJK go through this pantomime with the window when she returned home from the pub with Mr Blotchy-Face. So I think it's possible that either (a) she found the key or (b) she never did the window-to-door thing herself probably because her arms weren't long enough, and so every time she went out she left the door open and hoped for the best that no one would try it.

[Nemo]

Don't know if these are any help

IMO a person could easily reach the lock but, as described, this would probably be by inserting the arm at least to the elbow

A cloth in the window or some sort of arm extension device might be points to consider