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  • Still Confused on Kelly crime scene

    In the photo of Millers court there are two sets of windows: I'm assuming that if's the right of the two, (and the lower right hand frame of that) which McCarthys assistant would have looked through when he saw Mary's body and also the same area from which you could open the door. Is this correct?

    Where I'm still confused:

    1) Where were the bed and table as seen in relation to the broken window? Were they directly accross from the window in a parallel fashion such as seen in MJK2? Meaning is what we see in MJK 2 the exact view that would have been gained looking through the window?

    Looking at the room diagram this seems accurate to me, but I heard it suggested in my original thread that there was A THIRD SET OF WINDOWS directly above the bedsite table and next to the door, so when the assistant looked through he would be looking directly down (more or less) on Kelly's body.

    2) In looking at the photo of Millers Court the bottom right window looks to far to reasonably unlatch the door.

    WHY I CARE:

    1) The fire was burning brightly (hot enough to melt the kettle), and based on the testimony of Cox, Pickett, Prater and Hutchinson I get the impression that Dorset street and the other surrounding streets were fairly packed with persons at all hours of the night. When I invision the Kelly murder I don't imagine this being a quite affair: I imagine much struggle and movement and I don't see someone in the throws of a violent lust murder being calm, composed and above all SILENT when he's hacking a body apart.

    Given the hot (bright) fire, in a fairly traveled area, the almost certain noise... How likely is it that a blood soaked (how could he not be, none of the burned clothes were for men) killer in a hightened emotional state really got away without attracting any attention whatsoever? Is it atleast possible that Hutchinson who was known to be in the area, got a glimpse through the window and for whatever reason (likely fear of disbelief or accusal of himself by the police) didn't run to the nearest p.c.? And that is where he got such an increadible description?

    2) I recall reading in the Mammoth Book of JTR that there was a missing key to 13 Millers Court (presumed to be in the possession of Barnett). I also recall that the door had to be broken in by McCarthy because it was locked after the murder. How would the killer have relatched the entry? Would he really be in such a calm and collected manner after what he did to think to reach through a broken window to lock it in increasingly brighter streets while needing to escape?

    I'm sure I'm just missing information because these points just don't seem to fit to me. Any help is, as always, appreciated.

  • #2
    Noise...lights........keys.......

    Good questions Future Man.........just a few observations....I don't
    necessarily think the room would have been a 3 ring circus where it
    was obvious something was going on in there...perhaps a flickering fire..
    Once Kelly was dead I don't expect a great deal of noise...slicing a
    dead body wouldn't necessarily create much that would escape into the
    streets or court.....also, many in the neighborhood would have known Mary was
    a prostitute and hence would not have disturbed her....perhaps she had
    a particularly weird John(punter) who requested strange things...?.
    that was her business...it appears people minded their own business
    since a cry of 'murder' hardly elicited a response...routine stuff...
    Also, I do think JtR was cunning and composed...the other murders seem
    to indicate this so I can see him doing some cleanup....looking out the
    window when it was time to go and quietly locking the door in whatever way
    this was done....it does seem a bit preposterous that no one would have
    witnessed anything but such is the nature of the JtR mystery and why
    we remain fascinated............

    P.S. I think your first observation about the room is the correct one and I
    don't think Hutch witnessed JtR hacking away...........unless of course you
    believe one theory that Hutch was JtR.......had been stalking Kelly and stole
    the key.......that's a good one..........


    Greg

    Comment


    • #3
      Hello you all!

      Well, I personally believe, that the photographer moved the body to some extent in the photo nr. 2 to get a good shot!

      All the best
      Jukka
      "When I know all about everything, I am old. And it's a very, very long way to go!"

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Future MD,

        You're right that it was the right hand window and the bottom pane on the right of that which was broken. Bowyer says in his police statement that he looked through the broken window.

        The table that had the bolster and the entrails on it was directly in front of the window that Bowyer looked through, because he stated at the inquest that he could see the lumps of flesh directly in front of him on the table, then, he looked further back and saw the bed with Mary's remains on it behind the table.

        It's impossible to say whether or not the table was in exactly that position when he looked in because the police and photographers may possibly have had to move it to get camera equipment in and get in and out themselves, as the table was at least at one point so close to the door that the door hit it when it was opened. It's just not possible to know for sure though what happened once the police entered unfortunately.

        There were only two windows in the room in the pump yard wall.

        The broken window pane is not that far from the handle of the door by the looks of it, if you look at the enhanced photo of MJK 3 that someone kindly put up recently. It was probably a bit of a stretch, but could obviously be done, or it wouldn't have been mentioned to the police.

        The missing key is really not much of a mystery. I think there is a thread on it here somewhere, (I think it was headed, not unexpectedly, 'The Mystery of the Missing Key') but the lock on Mary's door was a spring lock and didn't need to be locked with a key. Once the catch was dropped it locked itself.

        I've personally always been wary of Hutchinson's evidence, but that is just my personal view and others will certainly disagree. However, just assuming for a moment that Mr Astakhan man was Mary's killer, then even if Hutch had looked through the window and seen him in action, it's not really likely that he would be fully dressed, in a hat and coat to dismember poor Mary. He would certainly have taken his outer clothes off at least and probably stripped down further than that, so I think I personally rule out the possibility that Hutch's description was based on anything he saw in Mary's room.

        If her killer did take his shirt off and was wearing black trousers, he could have walked out of that room without any noticeable signs of blood on him at all.

        And as Greg says, it might well not have been that noisy. It does seem that no-one did hear much, either in Miller's Court, Hanbury Street, Buck's Row or Dutfield's Yard where there were people very close by. Even with Martha Tabram's murder in George Yard Buildings, no-one appears to have heard anything. It is possible that they just didn't want to get involved and lied, but we can't really ever know for sure.

        Some interesting thoughts there Future -- I'd not even considered that Hutchinson might have actually looked through the window and seen Mary's killer at work!

        Hugs

        Jane

        xxxx
        I'm not afraid of heights, swimming or love - just falling, drowning and rejection.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Jane Coram View Post
          The broken window pane is not that far from the handle of the door by the looks of it, if you look at the enhanced photo of MJK 3 that someone kindly put up recently. It was probably a bit of a stretch, but could obviously be done, or it wouldn't have been mentioned to the police.
          In addition to Jane's fine post, Future MD, I think that if you take a look at the photo taken of Mary's room from the outside, you'll see that the broken pane was no more than about a foot from the corner (1 brick + window frame) and that the door was probably a bit further away from the corner (looks like ca. 1 and a half bricks and a door frame).

          So, using Pythagoras' theorem: if arm and lock were at the same height, then the stretch through the window would be some (30*30 + 40*40 = C*C =) 50 cm (1.69 ft). Even if the hole in the pane was 40 cm away from the corner and the lock 45 cm - which seems much to me -, then the stretch would still only be about 60 cm, while the arms of a man or woman would be some 60 cm at least. Mine are some 65 cm and I'm 1.73 m or 5'8".

          All the best,
          Frank
          Attached Files
          "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
          Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Frank,

            I'm glad you worked that out because it would have ended up as 17 feet 3 inches if I'd done it. Well done my friend.

            Much love

            Janie

            xxxx
            I'm not afraid of heights, swimming or love - just falling, drowning and rejection.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm sure you'd have done better, but I'm glad I could help, Janie!

              Frank
              "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
              Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

              Comment


              • #8
                Hello Frank!

                Well, a fine piece of work!

                Do you know anyone, who has made the measurements for the interior of the room?!

                All the best
                Jukka
                "When I know all about everything, I am old. And it's a very, very long way to go!"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Jukka!

                  Thanks for the compliment, my Finnish friend. I'm afraid I don't anyone who's made measurements or estimates of the interior of Mary Jane's room. I hope someone else knows. The outside is a bit easier, because the bricks (height & width) give us something of a direction.

                  All the best,
                  Frank
                  "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                  Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Wow Frank! That was incredible. I'm not good at math and I've taken several algebra classes. Great work.

                    Something that has always puzzled me, why did everyone wait so long to break through the door to get to Mary? I mean obviously she was already dead and so trying to save or revive her would be pointless, however, the longer they waited the more time and evidence they lost.

                    Something else that has always puzzled me and I think I stated this on another thread, wouldn't Jack have been worried that someone could have looked through the window while he was killing and mutilating Mary? I mean the window was broken out pretty bad, you can see it in the pics where the breaks are. Anyone could have walked up and pulled the coat back and looked through (supposedly there was a coat covering the window)

                    Also, and I don't mean to be disgusting, but what about the smell of blood? Surely with all the blood in the room it would have been noticeable outside like a butcher shop. Wouldn't anyone walking by thought that to be odd?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Just another quick thought . . .why in the world did McCarthy have the door broken down? He had the damn key!!!! Why didn't he just use the key and unlock the door? I swear this man seems to me like a complete imbecile.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hello Dana!

                        Maybe they thought at that stage, that the killer could be inside still! And probably no-one wanted to mess the possible evidence.

                        To your other post; maybe McCarthy was in a state of shock.

                        All the best
                        Jukka
                        "When I know all about everything, I am old. And it's a very, very long way to go!"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DanaeChantel View Post
                          I'm not good at math and I've taken several algebra classes.
                          Pythagoras' theorem is about the only thing I remember about math, but I guess you remember what can come in handy...
                          Something that has always puzzled me, why did everyone wait so long to break through the door to get to Mary?
                          I believe it was Dr Phillips who asked the police not to go into the room and wait for the blood hounds. When superintendent Arnold arrived at the scene at 1.30 pm, he informed that the dogs weren't going to come, so they went in at that point.
                          Something else that has always puzzled me and I think I stated this on another thread, wouldn't Jack have been worried that someone could have looked through the window while he was killing and mutilating Mary? I mean the window was broken out pretty bad, you can see it in the pics where the breaks are. Anyone could have walked up and pulled the coat back and looked through (supposedly there was a coat covering the window)
                          I don't claim to know that he was or wasn't worried, but why would people, at that time of night, want to take a peek into the room if nothing out of the ordinary was to be seen or heard from the outside? I don't think there was a smell of blood noticeable either.

                          All the best,
                          Frank
                          "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                          Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Frank....wonder if you can help me out here.....did Mary have a habit of taking clients home? Any of the witnesses/neighbours comment on this?

                            Two in a night could be unusual....with implications for Blotchy or someone breaking in.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              FM...quick answers: 1. not that we know of; 2. not directly--Cox's comment was about a 'visitor', not a client, but that's no big surprise.

                              This has been a matter for some discussion in the past, unsurprisingly
                              best,

                              claire

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